P-47's terribly wrong

[Ardy123]

Not trying to challenge you MtMan, and I will say that you are one of the very best. 

I agree that the better pilot will usually win out but wouldn't improving your 'technique', make you the better pilot, and then no longer 'equal' to your opponent in skill?

[bustr]

P47's did not begin combat missions untill March 10 1943.

Do you have any revised data from winter 43 summer 44 on P47D combat recomendations after they had been in combat for awhile? Your data is from 18 December 1942 concerning P47C-1's. Our P47's ingame start at P47D-11.

I flew with Nomde and Frenchy in the 56th from AH1 through the start of AH2. If anything the current P47's are a bit doggier than they were back then except for the WEP performance with the new P47M.

You have been in the game long enough that maybe you are making the aircraft in question too easy in your own mind and this post is a longing for those old days when you had to work harder and your victories ment more because of it.

[mtnman]

Not trying to challenge you MtMan, and I will say that you are one of the very best. 

I agree that the better pilot will usually win out but wouldn't improving your 'technique', make you the better pilot, and then no longer 'equal' to your opponent in skill?

No problem Ardy, I wasn't feeling challenged!  

Yes, and that pilot inequality is precisely why I don't put any faith in the "I was out-turned (etc) by a xxx" as meaning much at all when it comes to plane capabilities or modeling.  I'm also pretty skeptical when I hear e-state estimations, and how they factored into that particular engagement.  That's why film is nice.

There are a lot of times I can out-scissor (or whatever) a specific plane with ease.  Then again, a lot of times I don't stand much of a chance pulling that same maneuver off against that same plane (and of course, my ride is pretty standard)...  It depends on a lot of things...

[LLogann]

The link you provided is not run by the USAF, not the old USAAC or USAAF. 

Based on this thread it's probably a good thing you don't post more often. 

Do you even play anymore?

I only mentioned the Spit due to it's history of ability to turn fight. I fly all types of aircraft and the Spit is the least. Like I said, I know the Corsair from years of flying it almost exclusively in the MAW. It did not do what it does today.

Ok you wanted data. Here is performance info by the USAAF PROOF DEPARTMENT, TACTICAL COMBAT SECTION, ARMY AIR FORCES PROVING GROUND COMMAND, EGLIN FIELD, FLORIDA

FINAL REPORT ON TACTICAL SUITABILITY OF THE P-47C-1 TYPE AIRCRAFT
18 December 1942

(e)       In close fighting the P-47C-1, due to its faster aileron roll, can quickly reverse turn and break off the combat almost at will. However, due to the large turning circle and low rate of climb, it is deemed inadvisable to attempt to dog fight with any type of enemy fighter now used in the combat area.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-tactical-trials.html

[Ardy123]

Consider that most roll data is taken with a very specific stick force applied (most commonly, 50 lb).

wow 50lbs of force! so at 5gs, that would be 250lbs of force? Thats a tremendous amount of force to pull when sitting down and not having much leverage. Modern fighters hit as much as 9g for short periods so that would be 450lbs... is that even possible for most people? (most pilots weren't build like Arnold Schwarzenegger).

err... my math is probably wrong, is the 50lbs is close to constant, and only the weight of the 'arm' changes with the Gs?

[Lepape2]

HTC, you read anything on the P-47 11,25, 40 and they all say that they were very good at high altitude but would never dogfight at low or even medium altitudes. The reason being of course was it's weight and non-aerobatic capabilities. It was called "the jug" for good reasons.

However, in this game, it can turn, do aerobatics, and maneuver almost like a spit. Even flying them I shake my head at some of the stuff I can do as I shoot down other planes. I had to laugh when HTC promoted that video on their website "wings of prey" showing all the crazy moves that a jug couldn't do. Proof of how bad this game has gotten. AH2 has been slowly moving from a good flight sim to an arcade game and that video just proved it. So like the P-47's, many of the planes are not taught on how a plane really flies (which many real pilots know here) but teach what it does in this pinball machine game. Thinking about sending quarters as my payment from now on.

Also, having flown the F4U models from the beginning, since that was our main plane in the Marine Air Wing, have noticed a big change in it as well. It was a "hog" flying and modeled correctly. Even using flaps we didn't attempt what can be done today. So I guess many things have changed to attract and keep more customers. Maybe good business sense but unfortunate to see happen to what was a good flight sim.

 

There is NOTHING even remotely arcade about this airplane. Heck, as a Jug flyer, I know damn too well the cons I must not engage or keep up with an experienced stick (in rides such as F4U, K4, P38, Spit8-9). Oh and its not "Birds of Prey". Never thought my video would be used as proof that HTC's physics where more flawed than Microsoft flight simulator... 

[FLS]

Lepape I think what viking73 means is that he failed to appreciate the excellent camera work and editing that went into your video as well as the outstanding flying. 

[Lepape2]

Lepape I think what viking73 means is that he failed to appreciate the excellent camera work and editing that went into your video as well as the outstanding flying. 

Yeah and because of that, you now have an avatar with an F4U flying backwards... 

[FLS]

Well you know my problem... too much levity, not enough gravity. 

[Murdr]

Really, that was one of the first things I learned when I started out as a trainer.  The vast majority of people who "want to learn to fly a <insert plane>" really just need work on technique.  Once you know the techniques, the actual plane choice means much less.  Once you know the technique, you can hop into almost anything and do pretty dang good.

Amen brotha!

[Gudda]

i love my P47 i think its jussst right 

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Things like real world pilot limitation, flight time and pilot know how.

many wII flight sim junkies have more *virtual flight time* and "oopse dont do that's" than any pilot flying in wII could ever have, simply put, we know how to fly dem's planes yo.

OH, and the lack of wind, jacks things up, makes that controled roller coaster ride effect..meh.

[Hunter66]

um no
a jug with wep and full flaps most certainly has the power to pull itself around...
no magic involved f4u's can do the same
Bulldog

[321BAR]

Mustangs

[BnZs]

And the P-47 is outclimbed and out-turned (badly) by all sorts of 109s. Just compare climb rates and turn raddii at DokGonzo's website if you don't believe me. So its all good. Cancel the emergency.

I only mentioned the Spit due to it's history of ability to turn fight. I fly all types of aircraft and the Spit is the least. Like I said, I know the Corsair from years of flying it almost exclusively in the MAW. It did not do what it does today.

Ok you wanted data. Here is performance info by the USAAF PROOF DEPARTMENT, TACTICAL COMBAT SECTION, ARMY AIR FORCES PROVING GROUND COMMAND, EGLIN FIELD, FLORIDA

FINAL REPORT ON TACTICAL SUITABILITY OF THE P-47C-1 TYPE AIRCRAFT
18 December 1942

(e)       In close fighting the P-47C-1, due to its faster aileron roll, can quickly reverse turn and break off the combat almost at will. However, due to the large turning circle and low rate of climb, it is deemed inadvisable to attempt to dog fight with any type of enemy fighter now used in the combat area.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-tactical-trials.html