Author Topic: Arena cap is getting out of hand  (Read 23926 times)

Offline Flench

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3104
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2011, 08:37:31 AM »
I just can't see how the split arena's would have any thing to do with subscribers . I must of joined back up right after the split and I did not even know about it ..Most new subscribers probably don't even know about it . or old player's coming back ...Just saying .....
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 08:41:28 AM by Flench »
Army of Muppets-"Failure is impossible"-Death before dishonor
         Lead follow or get out of the way  !!

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6789
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2011, 08:59:01 AM »
I am new here and unbelievably surprised that the axis vs allies arena sits empty.

With all of the players demanding flight, gunnery, and damage model to be as historically accurate as possible, I am surprised that they aren't interested in flying versus opponents that would historically be matched against thier chosen airplane.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23864
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2011, 09:06:22 AM »
I am new here and unbelievably surprised that the axis vs allies arena sits empty.

With all of the players demanding flight, gunnery, and damage model to be as historically accurate as possible, I am surprised that they aren't interested in flying versus opponents that would historically be matched against thier chosen airplane.

The big participation in events like FSO and Scenarios do show players are interested. The reasons why players do not flock the AvA are manifold, and do not necessarily result from any aversion against historical matchups.
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12320
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #123 on: March 15, 2011, 09:28:16 AM »
That's not exactly proof that was the reason subscriptions increased.  What if you would have switched to whole grain shredded wheat for breakfast cereal and subscriptions started to go up?

Grizz you are 100% correct, it is not 100% proof. But when I analyze all changes , and data during that period it is the most likely conclusion I can draw. Your asking us to ignore the elephant in the room.

2nd your trying to argue from a vacuum with zero data along with the fact that you want one arena.  Hence your views would naturally be biased. I really do not care if we have 1 arena or 2 or 20. My goal is simply to choose the configuration that MOST players prefer as show by the pocket books.

So to compare my analysis to your shredded wheat example is very insulting. I have a VERY large stake in the discussions, I may be wrong with some choices , but  I have every motivation to get the analysis correct, while you do not.

HiTech

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17642
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #124 on: March 15, 2011, 10:12:07 AM »
Flench, it's not a comparison thing single vs multiple. So trying compare it to what we had before to what we have now doesn't work.

It' a human nature thing. Once a group becomes too large it can no longer self govern its self.

It deem to me that as a smaller group we are meant to govern ourselves by staying on top of the "bad element" by using the tools provided by HTC, and peer pressure to keep the gaming experience fun for all.

Once the group gets too big it becomes too much to watch/report all of the poor behavior so nobody does. This just makes thing worst in the arena until people no longer want to play. 

Now HTC split the arenas to keep the "groups" smaller, but had to come up with a way to populate both arena evenly. So we get dynamic caps.

Its unfortunate that people MUST play in the arena that is listed near the top.   If the only problem is "I want to fly with my squad" then it could easily be solved by just having your squad nights in the "2nd" arena down.
 

Offline Zoney

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6503
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #125 on: March 15, 2011, 12:21:30 PM »
The big participation in events like FSO and Scenarios do show players are interested. The reasons why players do not flock the AvA are manifold, and do not necessarily result from any aversion against historical matchups.

That statement is right on the money.  Many of us do love the historical match-ups, and those can be had in the FSO (Fridays) and events like the currently running Battle Over Germany (BOG).  I get my fill of the historical stuff here and therefore do not need to fly it on a daily basis.  After a few of these you may undrstand that in a way the MA is just practice (fun practice never-the-less).
Wag more, bark less.

Offline grizz441

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7000
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2011, 12:50:25 PM »
2nd your trying to argue from a vacuum with zero data along with the fact that you want one arena.  Hence your views would naturally be biased. I really do not care if we have 1 arena or 2 or 20. My goal is simply to choose the configuration that MOST players prefer as show by the pocket books.

Not true.  In fact, I posted my solution to caps laid out by your rules of "2 arena min" and you ignored it.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,308665.0.html
I have also seen population kill data which I believe to be highly correlative with subscription rates.


I have a VERY large stake in the discussions, I may be wrong with some choices , but  I have every motivation to get the analysis correct, while you do not.

Then why ignore my perfectly legitmate caps idea?  I spent time and put thought into drafting what I thought would be the most efficient way to utilize caps and also cater to the most people in the game and was ignored.  Maybe you didn't see it.

The breakfast example was simply an analogy, mildly insulting to get your attention, but you should easily be able to laugh something like that off for how long you've been around the interwebz.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 12:56:37 PM by grizz441 »

Offline muzik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2011, 01:00:23 PM »
Grizz you are 100% correct, it is not 100% proof. But when I analyze all changes , and data during that period it is the most likely conclusion I can draw. Your asking us to ignore the elephant in the room.

2nd your trying to argue from a vacuum with zero data along with the fact that you want one arena.  Hence your views would naturally be biased. I really do not care if we have 1 arena or 2 or 20. My goal is simply to choose the configuration that MOST players prefer as show by the pocket books.

So to compare my analysis to your shredded wheat example is very insulting. I have a VERY large stake in the discussions, I may be wrong with some choices , but  I have every motivation to get the analysis correct, while you do not.

HiTech

This is my point, even with your response you still do not state any specific reasons why the single arena is unhealthy. Which means you are working off of a good deal of speculation which you just confirmed.

I understand the dynamic of the group and I agree that this is what happens. But that is a broad definition of what happens. What are the exact problems we have that contribute to customer dis-satisfaction?

I will throw out there what I said before, we have horde issues, we have abuse issues, we have communication issues, and we have control issues.

As I said before, we could come up with a complex base cap system that would accomplish the same thing as the split arena and the only drawback is a slight restriction in choice of bases to fly from. This cant be any worse than being restricted from choosing an arena where the majority of the action is. At least in this case a guy who is separated from his squad is more likely to be reunited with them in a short period of time.

Split arenas are a form of crowd control without any real constructive frame work. Splitting up the kids does not deal with the issues that cause the frustrations that are supposedly causing subscription loss. You have a war without any command and control. In a war zone commanders didnt play lone wolf all the time and they werent allowed to launch offensives anytime and anyhow they felt like it. I suggest we look at how command and control worked in ww2 to find ideas and the first thing I think you should concentrate on is distribution of forces. And it seems to me this is the first step in giving this game a little more strategic play.

We should not have huge hordes at one or two locations on any map. The battle should be spread out all along the front lines and if you dont want to use base caps to accomplish this, maybe there could be other incentives put into place that would drive players to want to spread out. For example, if perks are that important to players, then how bout a sliding perk scale? If you fly in a zone that is largely overpopulated, then you get little to no perks, if the area is underpopulated then you get a large amount of perks.

Obviously there are also interpersonal issues that game rules arent going to remedy. Part of this is channel 200. I dont think it should be eliminated, but traffic gets overwhelming on it when the numbers are high. Limit 200 to a certain range? Perhaps there should be more in game volunteer moderators to control abusive behavior.

The point is, there is no structure to this game and as you pointed out the larger it gets the more control you need. We need more specific information and we need to deal with the issues that are causing dissatisfaction. I know the first impulse as a player is to want to do what you want, when you want and to resist all forms of control. But I think the problem with the split arenas is not merely we are being controlled but that it is not complex enough to target ONLY the issues that are causing the problems.

What you absolutely must do if you want any constructive criticism or ideas from us is give us a list of SPECIFIC problems your customers have that directly concern the "health" of the arena. (excluding wishes and retardedness of course) We cannot solve problems without knowing exactly what they are.

I suggest a pole. I think you have enough diversity in current customers, but if you can get former customers too, all the better. First get every possible complaint concerning the "fun" of the game and what ruins it for us. It should have an intensity scale involved. How much does this affect you on a scale of one to ten. And when you can tell us exactly what the problems are that need to be addressed you may not even need our input, but if you do I think we could come up with some compromises.

PS as far as distribution of forces, I seem to recall that the easier it is to take bases, the smaller the hordes were. Last time I played it was so hard to take bases that hardly ever did you see a few guys hanging around to defend a base because they knew it wasnt that easy. So everyone goes and joins the horde to take another base. After all, as hard as it was, you really needed all the help you could get. Just another thought on how to get people to spread out.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2011, 01:17:28 PM »
Why do people dislike caps?

- The other arena gets populated fast after switch, some get left out and decide to logoff instead of waiting for the 15 player blue to grow. Done that and most of players I know do that.
- The other arena gets populated fast, half of squad gets left out and decide to logoff instead of waiting to all switch to smaller server and wait for repopulation. Again, been there done that.
- The arena closes 'just when you're starting to have fun' a very typical comment you hear on closing time.
- The state of war is reset so you kinda have to start from scratch there too. Not a problem for me but perhaps for landgrabbers.

My suggestion would fix every point of the above if the split would be forced and 50% of players would be relocated squad, then player at a time to a running clone of the MA. The players would see a big warp, perhaps an enemy under fight would 'disappear' i.e. left to the other server but fight would continue non-stop and squads remain intact without either server being void of players.

I think it's a fair assumption that squads comprise the same kind of share of each country so post-switch the balance shouldn't be distorted.

Instead of logging on and checking "hmm is my squad in the full orange or half-full blue, if it's orange I have to login/logoff untill a slot is available or I get frustrated and decide not to play at all" the player would see "hmm my squad is assigned to the blue side today, oh well, doesn't affect me at all since both have around 200 players and I'm automagically directed to the correct server where my squad already is'.

As stupid as it may sound the game is all about social connections. Once you start in a squad the game changes fundamentally and feels lacking when you can't join the friends.

Does anyone think of any downsides to this outside of the Coading required to make this happen? I'm sure the login/logoff game _many_ I know are doing to get in the arena places a large unnecessary strain on the server alone.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 01:36:04 PM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12320
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #129 on: March 15, 2011, 01:24:26 PM »
Not true.  In fact, I posted my solution to caps laid out by your rules of "2 arena min" and you ignored it.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,308665.0.html

Oh golly G grizz, I read your idea, just like the other 10,000 Ideas posted but I did not respond to it. I'm sorry that I did not treat you more special then everyone else who ever posted an idea.

Grizz,
How many new people come to our internet sight each day.
How many people visit our download page every day?
How many people downloaded the game every day?
How many people created an account but did not enter the game?
How many people created an account ?
How many days does the average person who creates an account play?
How many people created an account who subscribed before.
How many people who try our game become subscribers.
How much advertising have we done this month.
How many people deleted there accounts this month.
How many people's credit cards were declined this month?
How many people have an account but did not play this month.
How many hours did the average person play last month?
What is the average life span of a subscriber?
What % of subscribers delete in the first month?

These are some of the metrics we look at. And even the simple metric you are using shows growth right after the change.
So yes , you are really viewing things with almost zero data.

HiTech




Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #130 on: March 15, 2011, 03:04:35 PM »
Does anyone think of any downsides to this outside of the Coading required to make this happen?

Yes ... forcing people to do something will never work as well as providing a choice. Forcing people to here and there will generate more whines than the current solution does.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #131 on: March 15, 2011, 03:07:36 PM »
Yes ... forcing people to do something will never work as well as providing a choice. Forcing people to here and there will generate more whines than the current solution does.

You're not thinking straight. People would not even notice anything has happened. NOW they're forced to log off and either fight for the occupied side or bide their time in the empty side. If arena would be split to 200 each, both arenas could be left open and war continue untill third split is needed.

The main idea is to avoid breaking up squads.

Let me ask you a question: Who do you care about in the game?

Is it the anonymous red dot on the opposing side? Will you miss a certain enemy in the battle? What about country members, do you miss any fellow countryman especially? What about squad members? Which do you think actually matters with your gameplay?

"You create the world of the game. You bring the subject in the game and they fill it with their squadmates.
Woman: How could you acquire enough detail to think that it's reality?
- Arenas.. they feel real when we're in them right? It's only when we log off that we realize something was actually strange...
Let me ask you a question: You never really remember the beginning of the war, you kinda end up in the middle of what's going on..
Woman: I guess yeah..
- So how did we end up here?
Woman: We're playing?"  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se5NBKNcsy4
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 03:45:28 PM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8054
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #132 on: March 15, 2011, 03:44:13 PM »

My suggestion would fix every point of the above if the split would be forced and 50% of players would be relocated squad, then player at a time to a running clone of the MA. The players would see a big warp, perhaps an enemy under fight would 'disappear' i.e. left to the other server but fight would continue non-stop and squads remain intact without either server being void of players.

The bolded portion would be a gamekiller.  Imagine closing on a 262 with smash after having worked for 20 minutes to get the angle, and he winks out of existence.  The whines would be legendary.

Now with that said, possibly shuffling people around who are in tower could be worked out instead.  The main downside I could see is if you're enjoying fighting an individual who's working in a certain area on the other side, and one of you gets shuffled away, that could be frustrating.  Or, if you're winging with a guy who's not in your squad it could be annoying.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #133 on: March 15, 2011, 03:47:51 PM »
The bolded portion would be a gamekiller.  Imagine closing on a 262 with smash after having worked for 20 minutes to get the angle, and he winks out of existence.  The whines would be legendary.

Now with that said, possibly shuffling people around who are in tower could be worked out instead.  The main downside I could see is if you're enjoying fighting an individual who's working in a certain area on the other side, and one of you gets shuffled away, that could be frustrating.  Or, if you're winging with a guy who's not in your squad it could be annoying.

Wiley.

Heh, THINK. This would happen perhaps once per day and only IF you're unlucky enough to end on the other side. Now you _will_ need to land that 262 in time that might not be enough for you to get home since server is closing. You lose all your kills if you don't make it. Even worse, you will lose your perks if you botch the landing in haste. Not only that, while you took the time to try and land your kills, the arena and your squad already flocked to orange and you can't get in anymore.

Arena has shown it self destructs without regulation.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 03:51:34 PM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8054
Re: Arena cap is getting out of hand
« Reply #134 on: March 15, 2011, 04:09:54 PM »
Heh, THINK. This would happen perhaps once per day

...to roughly 50% of the people logged into the server.  I'm sorry, but that's not trivial, Ripley.  I was just using the 262 as an illustration, whatever fight you're in, people getting 'beamed out' will be confusing and jarring.  I did think, and it's not a good idea.

This is also not even considering the ground war.  How is it going to make people feel if they're in the middle of a base grab or defense, they've swung the numbers in their favor, and suddenly find half their reinforcements disappearing to the other arena?

For that matter, what happens with the ground game?  Does the second arena mirror the first one exactly on startup, including damage, or what?  If you were about to receive vehicle supplies from a goon and he beams out, what now?

Another thing, this is what will happen as the arena grows, what happens when numbers drop off?  Do the two arenas consolidate again?  So you have people 'beaming in' with 10k alt at random?

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11