Author Topic: Worst A/C of ww2  (Read 5788 times)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2011, 11:07:18 AM »
maybe the finn's were better pilots then us, but probably not, look what happend to them after Yak's and La's started to replace the older types that were getting shot down by brewsters

The newer types still got shot down by Brewsters far more than Brewsters got shot down by them. :) Exchange ratio of 26:1 tells us something considering that the Brewsters were flown operationally throughout the Continuation War and therefore had to face plenty of the newer types of Soviet fighters.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 11:15:52 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2011, 11:11:41 AM »
BTW, by 1943, for the most part the Finns switched to 109g2s,

Incorrect.

Finland recieved its first G-2s in March 1943. Total of 30 G-2s were recieved in the spring of '43. Majority of the Finnish fighter force still consisted of older types.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 12:20:53 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2011, 11:18:05 AM »
MiloMorai,

Plus their rides were modern in '40, and they updated them.


True and, as pointed out elsewhere w/r the ingame Brewie is the export version, ie., NOT the USN version.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 11:22:40 AM by PJ_Godzilla »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2011, 11:21:03 AM »
Also, and it may have come up in the intervening 6 pages (I'll wait for the movie to come out), I don't see how we can have this discussion without the Devastator getting a nomination.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2011, 11:26:11 AM »
You've identified some of the reasons that made it a bad idea at the time.  In a broader sense it was yet one more example of the Nazis dispersing their available resources on too many projects, rather than focusing on a proven few.  This was especially unwise with a project that was so leading-edge at the time - those are the ones you rush at your greatest peril, as your faulty construction examples illustrate.  The notion that it would be flown by Hitler Youth (or at least by large numbers of pilots with minimal training) was central to the concept.  Otherwise there was already a well-tested jet that the veterans were flying.

- oldman

You've got it all wrong there Oldman. The 162 WAS the improvement on the trusted and tested platform.

Look at the 110s, look at the 410s, the twin engine fighters didn't get as much a boost from that second engine, yet required much more resources, money, and engines to build for the same number of airframes. They all ended up heavier, slower, and less manuverable than the single engine counterparts that were winning the war.

With Germany's resources stretched so thin, producing jet engines with the rare metal in them that can withstand the forces needed was a strain to meet 262 and other jet needs. It was quite logical to take that 262 design, retain the top speed, add manuverability, make it smaller, more nimble, oh, and use only 1/2 the engines (allowing 2x the airframes to fill the sky for the same number of limited engines).

It was the next step forward.

As an aside, there were actually supposedly 2 hitler youth units training and gearing up on the 162, along with the 2 actual Luftwaffe units, but records to verify this are sketchy as records were burned in mass bonfires in the streets as Berlin was being invaded.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2011, 12:41:01 PM »
You've got it all wrong there Oldman. The 162 WAS the improvement on the trusted and tested platform.

Look at the 110s, look at the 410s, the twin engine fighters didn't get as much a boost from that second engine, yet required much more resources, money, and engines to build for the same number of airframes. They all ended up heavier, slower, and less manuverable than the single engine counterparts that were winning the war.

With Germany's resources stretched so thin, producing jet engines with the rare metal in them that can withstand the forces needed was a strain to meet 262 and other jet needs. It was quite logical to take that 262 design, retain the top speed, add manuverability, make it smaller, more nimble, oh, and use only 1/2 the engines (allowing 2x the airframes to fill the sky for the same number of limited engines).

It was the next step forward.

As an aside, there were actually supposedly 2 hitler youth units training and gearing up on the 162, along with the 2 actual Luftwaffe units, but records to verify this are sketchy as records were burned in mass bonfires in the streets as Berlin was being invaded.

While I often get things all wrong, I think not this one.  Germany didn't have time for a next step forward, it had to deal with the here and now.  The Viper was a big step forward, the 163 may have been a step forward, heck even the Do 335 may have been a step forward, but all of them dispersed Germany's efforts when those efforts should have been focused on immediate production of tested designs.  The 163 probably would have required another six months or year of testing before it was reliable, not to mention figuring out how to set up a child-pilot jet training program, and the Germans didn't have that time.

- oldman

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2011, 12:54:33 PM »
Incorrect.

Finland recieved its first G-2s in March 1943. Total of 30 G-2s were recieved in the spring of '43. Majority of the Finnish fighter force still consisted of older types.

So tell me, according to a previous post, there was only ever a total of 44 Brewsters in the air force, yet there was 48 109 g2s and 109 g6s... what does it take to qualify for replacing then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2011, 01:17:16 PM »
So tell me, according to a previous post, there was only ever a total of 44 Brewsters in the air force, yet there was 48 109 g2s and 109 g6s... what does it take to qualify for replacing then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Finland

G-2's were purchased with an agreement that all losses would be replaced. Those 18 G-2s are replacements that came as the original ones were destroyed for one reason or another. First G-6s came to Finland as late as April '44 and bulk of them were flown to Finland during the summer of '44. Even then, Brewsters weren't replaced as fighters. They still were flown by the Fighter Squadron 26, allthough not in the hotests "hotspots" of Karelian Isthmus, right until the armstice with Soviet Union and after that against the Germans in Lappland.

I suggest you read up on Finnish Air Force history a bit more before making errorous claims.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 01:34:26 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2011, 01:24:48 PM »
While I often get things all wrong, I think not this one.  Germany didn't have time for a next step forward, it had to deal with the here and now.  The Viper was a big step forward, the 163 may have been a step forward, heck even the Do 335 may have been a step forward, but all of them dispersed Germany's efforts when those efforts should have been focused on immediate production of tested designs.  The 163 probably would have required another six months or year of testing before it was reliable, not to mention figuring out how to set up a child-pilot jet training program, and the Germans didn't have that time.

- oldman

It really didn't disperse much. More than 1500 Me262s were built. Half of them were destroyed parked waiting for shipping. They still got the other half out, flew bomber missions, night fighter missions, daytime interception missions. Not counting the Ar234s and other jets.

Production wasn't the issue. They built more Bf109s in the last months of the war than they did any month leading up to that, if I recall. They had the production distributed out to so many garage industries that no bombing run could shut down a plant. They simply assembled the planes at the factories. It was that initial design phase that cost money and time. It was making the frames and rigs to build the parts (the patterns, or whatever). They got that done on the 162 in record time. By any standard it was fast, and it was good. Can't really blame bad glue for losing a wing here or there. Tragic yes, but hardly unique. Ta154 was grounded because of glue as well and it showed as much promise as the RAF Mosquito.

Their production was so ahead of their actual pilots and bodies to put in the planes that they could and did branch out and build many different things with no detrimental impact. This wasn't the case in 1939/1940, but at the end? They had more than enough "wiggle room."

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2011, 02:31:02 PM »
Quote
Half of them were destroyed parked waiting for shipping

Some 611 Me162s were damaged or lost completely before delivery. Of these 611, some 114 were repaired, leaving 497 as total loss. Hardly 1/2.

Quote
They built more Bf109s in the last months of the war than they did any month leading up to that, if I recall.

These are neubau numbers for the 109:

1944
Jan - 932   
Feb - 715   
Mar - 804   
Apr - 1006   
May- 1065   
June - 1230    
July - 1043   
Aug - 1374   
Sept - 1718   
Oct - 1793   
Nov - 1558   
Dec - 1147   

1945
Jan - 1221   
Feb - 876   
Mar - 716

Offline MachFly

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2011, 02:34:28 PM »
Spitfire, just think about the number of Germans that hated it.  :devil
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #116 on: March 21, 2011, 02:42:33 PM »
Spitfire, just think about the number of Germans that hated it.  :devil

And a certain Hungarian lawyer. :x

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #117 on: March 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PM »


Production wasn't the issue. They built more Bf109s in the last months of the war than they did any month leading up to that, if I recall.

Paraphrasing what I recall of Speer, yes, I believe it is generally correct that fighter production peaked late. What killed the Luftwaffe was not aircraft production so much as a lack of pilots, fuel, and ultimately, places to build and land them. Thus, I'd be sruprised if the "last month" claim is accurate but production peaked late in the war, certainly.

Also, many of the facilities were hardened and extended. Indeed, F-dubs were being assembled under Templehof right to the end.

<edit> and I see from Milo that, yes, it was a late war peak but not "the last month". Thanks for that, Milo.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 02:51:24 PM by PJ_Godzilla »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2011, 03:00:48 PM »

Offline Krusty

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Re: Worst A/C of ww2
« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2011, 03:02:02 PM »
And also I could be thinking of all fighter types, as the Fw190s were produced heavily up til the end, both inline and radial. Other types were also becoming more common (such as 262, such as twin engined night fighters, etc)