Night Arena

[MachFly]

Icons didn't kill nighttime in Aces High, the ability to boost gamma to simulate daylight, did.

Icons did not kill it, but the ability to boost gamma was not the only reason. Aces High (as well as any other sim) is a lot closer to a game than a simulator with night enabled. I don't think I would fly at night in AH because of how far from reality it gets. Unless you are flying over a city this is what you are supposed to see:



Maybe a few lights in the distance and a moon if you get lucky.

[Ack-Ack]

Why did he hold for 3 minutes to get visual? To verify friend/foe? I've seen other accounts of v-kills at night. This is but one example.

You can't shoot at what you don't see.  That's why they had to hold course for 3 minutes, so they could visually spot the bandit before engaging.  

 

Otherwise, the closing speed issue is potentially valid, depending on the interceptor in use. However, of the known types used in nightfighting (P-61, 110, 219, P-70, P-38, F6F, FW190, Ju-88/188/388, others) I don't see why this would be such a huge problem.

P-70 didn't have an issue with closing speed as it was usually too slow to intercept anything anyway, that's why it was pulled and considered a failure as a night fighter.

Anyway, closing speed was an issue because relative energy states was very difficult to gauge in the darkness and the pilot had to be very careful not to overshoot the bandit.  As long as the pilot kept on eye on his speed, it wasn't a major issue but get lax just for a few seconds and it could quickly become a major one.

ack-ack

[gyrene81]

Here is something for the AvA guys. 

(Image removed from quote.)

  nice one delirium...the concession has been acknowledged...though not to the extremes some want to claim...if the graphics in ah was capable of rendering at least the full outline of an average fighter out to 2000 yards (just over a mile) would you feel better about the no icons?

[PJ_Godzilla]

Anyway, closing speed was an issue because relative energy states was very difficult to gauge in the darkness and the pilot had to be very careful not to overshoot the bandit.  As long as the pilot kept on eye on his speed, it wasn't a major issue but get lax just for a few seconds and it could quickly become a major one.

ack-ack

Right, but this directly contradicts Krusty's earlier assertion - one I found to be baseless.

Based on everything I'm hearing, the night arena died not so much because it was nightfighting per se but because of execution issues, e.g., gamma, lack of suitable aircraft, lack of suitable systems, bandwagon effect, etc.

I say to all this, perhaps if it were to be rethought/retooled it might yet be a success. Consider Delirium's prescription w/r graphics or what the addition of several dedicated nocturnal types might mean. It's out there - but probably not yet.

[Ack-Ack]

Right, but this directly contradicts Krusty's earlier assertion - one I found to be baseless.

Based on everything I'm hearing, the night arena died not so much because it was nightfighting per se but because of execution issues, e.g., gamma, lack of suitable aircraft, lack of suitable systems, bandwagon effect, etc.

It died because the majority would log off and then come back in an hour when it was over. 

 

I say to all this, perhaps if it were to be rethought/retooled it might yet be a success. Consider Delirium's prescription w/r graphics or what the addition of several dedicated nocturnal types might mean. It's out there - but probably not yet.

The problem is that night fighting was drastically different than daytime fighting, there weren't these swirling dogfights in the sky and that ultimately will keep people away.

ack-ack

[fullmetalbullet]

and it would make UFOs much easier to spot. 

[PJ_Godzilla]

It died because the majority would log off and then come back in an hour when it was over. 

 
The problem is that night fighting was drastically different than daytime fighting, there weren't these swirling dogfights in the sky and that ultimately will keep people away.

ack-ack

I concede the cause of death as _likely_ an historical fact. I also concede the point that night fighting and daytime fighting are drastically different.

The point I do not concede is that night fighting could also be a compelling and immersive form of AHII gaming, given a properly conceived and executed effort. I also suspect that such an effort would produce its own weird breed of specialists.

[Krusty]

A "properly conceived and executed" effort would look nothing like AH. It would look more like Silent Hunter or other submarine warfare games. Intense waiting, darkness, not ever seeing your target until you fire, etc...

The entire infrastructure, from search lights to radar operators (GCI, etc) and all the looking-in-the-scope stuff to chase-the-blips and then looking, looking, looking, only to break off before you ram the target....

None of that is remotely similar to AH flying at night.


So no, your claim is wrong. It could not work because "properly conceived and executed" it won't be.

EDIT: And your plane list would be significantly smaller, and significantly slower (drag from radar antenna). No P-51s. No spits. No 190Ds.

[Dichotomy]

Here is something for the AvA guys. 

(Image removed from quote.)

 

shoosh it before I smack you with my can and set my seeing eye dog on ya

[PJ_Godzilla]

A "properly conceived and executed" effort would look nothing like AH. It would look more like Silent Hunter or other submarine warfare games. Intense waiting, darkness, not ever seeing your target until you fire, etc...

The entire infrastructure, from search lights to radar operators (GCI, etc) and all the looking-in-the-scope stuff to chase-the-blips and then looking, looking, looking, only to break off before you ram the target....

None of that is remotely similar to AH flying at night.


So no, your claim is wrong. It could not work because "properly conceived and executed" it won't be.
EDIT: And your plane list would be significantly smaller, and significantly slower (drag from radar antenna). No P-51s. No spits. No 190Ds.

But you just illustrate the point. It's different. That doesn't mean it couldn't work. Indeed, the games you cite are fun, from what I hear.

Your other point may be more credible - i.e., that it wouldn't be properly executed in AH. To this I say, only if you try to make night fighting into a kind of darkened version of daytime AH. It's a different paradigm. AH is a logical place for the spinoff to occur because flight models still matter.

I consider some of the other issues you raise. What about flares and searchlights and the partial illumination they'd offer? That'd be somewhat thrilling, as would be the money-shot payoff of the inevitably fiery explosion as your He219's kanonen find a fuel tank on that fat Handley-Page.

Finally, the planelist size isn't what counts but rather the validity of it for the mission at hand.

That said, Godzilla never puts to sea in a canoe. Give me an He219.

[FLS]

Night is seldom pitch black. Night in AH always had a moon.

[fullmetalbullet]

yeah if you set time to 01:00 in the offline practice its completely dark and yet you can still see the planes.with the moon of course. i think HTC should bring back night time. with the moon. and an ocasional completely pitch black part of the night.

[CptTrips]

"Hey, let's have a night arena, that'd be fun!"

Just remember, at one point somebody said "Hey, let's have a WWI arena, that'd be fun!"

We've never gotten a WWI Arena.  We're still waiting for it.

,
Wab
 

[PJ_Godzilla]

We've never gotten a WWI Arena.  We're still waiting for it.

,
Wab
 

Exactly. Likewise, just turnih the lights off on the MA and calling it "Night Arena" doth not a Night Arena qua Night Arena make.

Unfortunately, because apparently that's almost exactly what WAS done, that well is now poisoned and the capacity to imagine something better appears to be sadly lacking in the cohort.

[fullmetalbullet]

Exactly. Likewise, just turnih the lights off on the MA and calling it "Night Arena" doth not a Night Arena qua Night Arena make.

Unfortunately, because apparently that's almost exactly what WAS done, that well is now poisoned and the capacity to imagine something better appears to be sadly lacking in the cohort.

im curious, about this myself. i can have night time in the offline practice by setting my time to 01:00. and when i do that its not pitch black. there is a moon, so why not make it liek that. but only able to identify the con at 3.0k out insted of 6.0k? you will still be able to see them at night with the moon, and still shoot them down. to be honest i think HTC shoulda done something like WoW did. linking its day and night cycles with RL day and night cycles. but sadly with the introduction of the LWOH arena that cant be done.