109K-6, k-14

[EagleDNY]

I have a few stories about a possible 109K-6 or 14 was in development at the end of the war.  However, no documentation of such AC or photo.  Was there really a K-6 or K-14 in development?  One thing i did find interesting about this was that it was a four prop not three

The books I have show the K-6 as being a K-4 with 2x30mm Mk. 108s "in the wings" and the upgraded (2000Hp) DB605D engine configuration.  I have a sketch of it that actually shows the 2 30mms in the wings (not in gondolas), although I am at a loss as to how they managed to fit them in there.  The engine configuration looks like the "1.98 ata DB605DC" configuration that has been discussed in other Me-109 K-4 threads, along with the 3-bladed wider prop from the K-4.  They are not showing any work numbers for production, but they do show that the prototype was being flown at the end of 1944.

The K-14 looks like the K-6 (3 x 30mms, 2 x 13mms) with the new DB-605L and a 4-bladed prop.  I don't think it got beyond the planning stage.

 

[oakranger]

The books I have show the K-6 as being a K-4 with 2x30mm Mk. 108s "in the wings" and the upgraded (2000Hp) DB605D engine configuration.  I have a sketch of it that actually shows the 2 30mms in the wings (not in gondolas), although I am at a loss as to how they managed to fit them in there.  The engine configuration looks like the "1.98 ata DB605DC" configuration that has been discussed in other Me-109 K-4 threads, along with the 3-bladed wider prop from the K-4.  They are not showing any work numbers for production, but they do show that the prototype was being flown at the end of 1944.

The K-14 looks like the K-6 (3 x 30mms, 2 x 13mms) with the new DB-605L and a 4-bladed prop.  I don't think it got beyond the planning stage.

 

That is what i read about the K-6 and K-15. There is question if there was a typo error of the K-14, if it could be the G-14 being upgrade to the four prop and equip with 3 x 30mms and 2 x 13mms.  Some even wonder if this may be a 190 too.

[moot]

Gonna hijack the hijack out of here to its own thread, sorry guys.

[oakranger]

Gonna hijack the hijack out of here to its own thread, sorry guys.

 

 

[PJ_Godzilla]

You're going way off tangent and totally taking things the wrong way.

The P-51, the Typhie, and the 190a8, are all very poor dogfighters.

Lately, I've been digging into the E-M diagrams. Take a loot at them some time, then qualify your statement w/r at least 2 of those three.  As far as I can see, none are good "angles" fighters - but this doesn't mean they're poor fighters or even dogfighters (subject to the defn.). Probably Moot makes this point somewhere below but at least the Typh and 51 have the right side of the E-M with which to work. I'm not sure the 410 does.

I mentioned to Moot, back in that thread he cites, that I ran some calcs to back out the SCd of common types based on their stated speed at alt data. There is either something physically poor about the 410 drag profile or the power ratings were incorrect because it and the D-9 backed out some of the worst SCd numbers I've seen (on par with the Vultee Vengeance). In the case of the D-9, I suspect stated power output was for optimal fuel and with MW50, stated top speed for near-optimal fit/finish (always an issue, apparently).

I just want 410 to see how good it is at lead shots - and to twin-fitty nail the first Spitty that saddles up . That, and it'd be good for scenario play, would give the fighters something to protect. 

[dtango]

I mentioned to Moot, back in that thread he cites, that I ran some calcs to back out the SCd of common types based on their stated speed at alt data. There is either something physically poor about the 410 drag profile...

That's been my suspicion for awhile about the 410.  Take a look at the fuselage shape particularly the nose & cockpit area.



The fuselage shape looks to me like it would promote a longer adverse pressure gradient along the fuselage resulting in more drag due the degree of thickness and curvature in the front 3rd of the airplane.  Alas I have no desire to crack out some CFD or computing using DATCOM to estimate the effects .  

Maybe someone with a masters degree in aero & a 5th degree CFD black belt in real life....ahem, PJ, ahem...would like too??

[moot]

PJ Krusty actually makes that point - that they're not angles fighters but still manage well if they stick to the right of ME diagram area.  He does say that the 410 flown that way should redeem itself, but the 410's specs IMO don't support that: the 410 is heavy, slow, has that unknown significant drag issue and the same top speeds as the 110, same powerloading as the 110, but has a much higher wingloading.   
Have you looked at its specifications and performance figures (e.g. German wartime speed & climb trials) altogether?  I stuck some of them on a wingloading & powerloading spreadsheet for comparison with the other twin engine fighters, and some of the best singles.  

It's all very crude analysis/comparison (some of those figures on the right could be wrong, they're just for ballpark comparison), but already at that level the relative performances that you'd guess from the figures for all these planes do match up with reality.  And there you can see the 410's powerloading is no different from the 110's, and its wingloading is easily the worst of all as soon as you add guns.. With no guns added, it's second only to the P-38 which is exceptional because it has fowler flaps.  Even so, in practice you can easily feel how high the P-38's wingloading is, esp. when you leave the flaps in.  

I guess one question I could ask that would put my POV to the test is - are there any planes you or DTango or anyone else knows of, with WWII wing design, that handle well or exceptionally well on the right side of an EM chart, with 47 to 50+ lbs/sqft wingloading?

On lead shots the 410 should be one of if not the best.  The only possible problem there is how HTC chooses to model historical covering up of the glass panels to block muzzle flash on some of the upgunned  loadouts.
The twin .50 should only be twin if the bogie stays dead 6.  It gets even dodgier with AH's system: the plane goes autopilot when you jump to gunner position.

[PJ_Godzilla]

PJ Krusty actually makes that point - that they're not angles fighters but still manage well if they stick to the right of ME diagram area.  He does say that the 410 flown that way should redeem itself, but the 410's specs IMO don't support that: the 410 is heavy, slow, has that unknown significant drag issue and the same top speeds as the 110, same powerloading as the 110, but has a much higher wingloading.   

If you go back and look at what I say, I say that I doubt the 410 has the right side. Krusty seems to think it does.

As for the EM question, both the D-9 fully laden (about 47) and the 51D laden live in the high 40's. However, I doubt they look all that great on the right side of the E-M chart at that loadout. The examples I've found were from Warbirds at a "combat load". Given the 51d's range, I suspect the variation of it's e-m plot is particularly large over its weight range, but do not know this for certain.

At the same time, it makes sense to me that, given that the right hand is define by top speed, structural limits at the top, and the sutained turn line at the bottom, given a sufficiently strong and fast aircraft, you could have envelope in which to work that the other guy DOES NOT. For example, the 104 Starfighter has a right hand sid ein which no WWII aircraft can live. More to the point, though, I suspect that, flly laden, that sustained turn line on the 51D's rhs gets pretty low and that you can live on that HS but only at the expense of energy swaps (alt).

I'll try to check it out. I've got a good link to the bootstrap but haven't paleyed with it at all - don't even know it's suitability to em charts.

I nany case, I make no such assertion about the 410 - doubt it'll be much of an energy fighter. 

[moot]

Yep I just want to be fair to what Krusty was arguing.

I should've specified.. Such a WWII design with all of the above and a top speed like the 410's.. Because with its level top speed, and powerloading+aero issues you and DTango pointed out (acceleration is what I'm thinking), I just don't see how one could take all the Me 410 specs on paper and find they all add up to anything even as good as the 190A8 in the MA.  Even just sticking to BnZ.  It's got less power, less top speed, and what looks like much less clean aerodynamics.

The Dora and Delta both live in that right hand side, but if the 410 also lived there, would it be enough ?  As it is, it looks like the right half of the 410's EM domain is over too low a speed range for that to save it.  It doesn't save the 190A8 and I reckon it's safe to assume that the right half of the A8's EM chart sits on a higher speed range than the 410's.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Yep I just want to be fair to what Krusty was arguing.

I should've specified.. Such a WWII design with all of the above and a top speed like the 410's.. Because with its level top speed, and powerloading+aero issues you and DTango pointed out (acceleration is what I'm thinking), I just don't see how one could take all the Me 410 specs on paper and find they all add up to anything even as good as the 190A8 in the MA.  Even just sticking to BnZ.  It's got less power, less top speed, and what looks like much less clean aerodynamics.

The Dora and Delta both live in that right hand side, but if the 410 also lived there, would it be enough ?  As it is, it looks like the right half of the 410's EM domain is over too low a speed range for it to save it.  It doesn't save the 190A8 and I reckon it's safe to assume that the right half of the A8's EM chart sits on a higher speed range than the 410's.

Agreed. It's probably just a smaller envelope. OTOH, with that nose and a decent dive performance... I wonder if that dutch roll/shimmy issue will mess up the dive at higher speeds or what the compressibility effects might be? My thinking on this is based on my D-9 experience. If you're over a crowd of bandits and can make the shot on each swoop, you can do a lot of damage. The Dora, for me, however, was hampered by that nose - and saddling up is a just a good way to die.

[moot]

That really would be one answer.. For the 410's high speed behavior to be very good.