Author Topic: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)  (Read 3369 times)

Offline Krusty

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2011, 04:50:45 PM »
I understand what you're saying. I don't have time to help out in that way. However, as messy as you may fear general forum discussions on upcoming scenarios may be (maybe? I know the forums can break down sometimes), you can always preface in large bold font red blinking face text that the scenario team can take or leave any parts of the discussion they agree fit (or don't) the upcoming scenario and that NO promises have been made.

I'm sure there's some middle ground to discuss these things with non-CM-team members? Even if only tentative discussions. Post the scenario breakdown, discuss, save all the notes, and even if that scenario isn't used that year (or the next) you review the notes and the minutes of the archived/saved discussion whenever it's dusted off.

Surely it can't help to bring out new ideas (i.e. the c2 for ki-44). As an example: I was not happy with the A6M5b as a sub for Ki44 in the last Rangoon. Here we are running it again and the same issue comes up. Too late to change this time around, and I guess I can accept that and move on. Will there be a point where you say "We're thinking of Rangoon again sometime, no promises. Thoughts here, please." ?

(fill in Rangoon with whatever you're considering)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2011, 05:34:27 PM »
Open discussions with everyone involved in the design process does not work.  We tried that -- several times.  It eventually devloves into a caustic morass of argument.

Offline klingan

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2011, 06:15:46 PM »
Give them the A6m 3 on the front page  :D


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Offline Ping

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2011, 03:05:33 PM »
Another option to use the A6M3 is to have all those registered with A6M5 to vote on substitution with A6M3.

Needs a 100% vote in favour to make the switch.

That being said, I'm not even registered.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2011, 04:33:22 PM »
See the other thread: Why are you putting the A6M3 in for the A6M5b? It's not there to replace the -3... It's there to replace the Ki-44, which we don't have in-game. The A6M3 would be a step down.

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2011, 09:03:04 PM »
I don't see where 110c's come into it though?   :D
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2011, 11:26:31 PM »
I think Fencer has it in there as a Ki-45 Nick (not as a Dinah as currently listed in writeup -- I think that needs to be changed).

A better choice would have been the Me 262, of course, but would he listen to me?  No.  ;)

Offline 321BAR

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 06:06:02 AM »
Let's not forget tropical filters on the hurr2Bs... Didn't they add quite a bit of drag?

End result is the 1a isn't too far off, if that's the case. The only difference being the negative G cutout on the engine.
just a hint krusty if you dont already know... sadly you try to get a good stall going in that... youre dead. honestly i'd love to see the 2A and 2B sometime soon because that carbeaurator's gonna kill the Hurris. one thing i dont like is P40Bs vs A6M5Bs. the A6M5 has a severe advantage over the 40B compared to what it truly fought (KI43s KI44s). I understand you have the 40E in there... just uneasy about it. either way im going to have fun downing Bettys and Zekes :aok
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2011, 07:05:39 AM »
Hasn't anyone watched the film of Schatzi's Hurri1 pwnage, yet?

Some lessons to be learned there.  You can even see when she is on/off the throttle from the puffs of exhaust  :aok
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Offline Fencer51

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2011, 07:36:52 AM »
Just a reminder that DoK GoNzO designed this one and it has been ran twice before.

The plane set before was even more riddled with substitutions and planes which were not even there.

HQ @ 4 P40E
HQ @ 4 A6M5b
RECON @ 4 Beaufighter (A20G)
L.R. ESCORT @ 4 x Ki-46-III Dinah (Me110C) + 4 x A6M5b
1 RAF Sqdn @ 12 Spit I
2 IJA Bomber Sqdn @ 3 Betty (Ju-88) Formations
1 RAF Sqdn @ 12 Hurri I
3 IJN Fighter Sqdn @ 12 A6M5b
1 AVG Sqdn @ 12 P40B
3 IJA Fighter Sqdn @ 12 A6M2
1 AVG Sqdn @ 12 P40E   
1 RAAF Sqdn @ 12 F4F-3 (FM2)   
* "Reserve" Sqdn @ 12 Buffalo (SBD)
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2011, 07:13:15 PM »
You are starting to speak with such authority.  Problem is you are dead wrong.  Hurri IIs were the Burma birds. 

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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2011, 01:49:26 PM »
Just a reminder that DoK GoNzO designed this one and it has been ran twice before.

The plane set before was even more riddled with substitutions and planes which were not even there.

HQ @ 4 P40E
HQ @ 4 A6M5b
RECON @ 4 Beaufighter (A20G)
L.R. ESCORT @ 4 x Ki-46-III Dinah (Me110C) + 4 x A6M5b
1 RAF Sqdn @ 12 Spit I
2 IJA Bomber Sqdn @ 3 Betty (Ju-88) Formations
1 RAF Sqdn @ 12 Hurri I
3 IJN Fighter Sqdn @ 12 A6M5b
1 AVG Sqdn @ 12 P40B
3 IJA Fighter Sqdn @ 12 A6M2
1 AVG Sqdn @ 12 P40E   
1 RAAF Sqdn @ 12 F4F-3 (FM2)   
* "Reserve" Sqdn @ 12 Buffalo (SBD)


I could live with seeing the Brewster drivers back in their early-era SBDs.   :devil 
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2011, 01:54:22 PM »
I could live with seeing the Brewster drivers back in their early-era SBDs.   :devil 

Considering the performance LEAP our Brewster has, the fact that many Brewsters had major problems with their wing guns jamming instantly and not firing again, the 2x50cal loadout of the SBD and lesser performance actually do sound (on the surface) a better match.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2011, 02:06:27 PM »
As a result of all this conjecture about the Brewster, I'm going to go out on a limb here (not having looked at it much yet) and say that I bet the Brewster we have and the one that was at Rangoon are fairly similar in performance.

I'm going to look into the performance, do some math, and present my case in the next week, and we'll see what that data says (as opposed to anecdotes and conjecture)!  ;)

Offline Krusty

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Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2011, 03:14:02 PM »
Seeing as no F3A-1s ever saw combat, I'd say they were later models. Most likely B-339Ds or Es or even B-439s... Essentially worse than F2A-3s because of the lesser engines and worse weight

Those export versions were a bane upon all who used them. Brewster was a terrible company.


Basic clip from Wiki:
Quote
"The Brewster Model B-339E, as modified and supplied to Great Britain was distinctly inferior in performance to the F2A-2 (Model B-339) from the original order. It had a less powerful (1,000 hp/746 kW) engine compared to the F2A-2's 1,200 hp (895 kW) Cyclone, yet was substantially heavier due to all of the additional modifications (some 900 lb/400 kg). The semi-retractable tail wheel had been exchanged for a larger fixed model, which was also less aerodynamic. Top speed was reduced from 323 mph (520 km/h) to 313 mph (504 km/h) at combat altitudes.

In its original form, the B-339 had a theoretical maximum speed of 323 mph (520 km/h) at a rather unrealistic 21,000 ft (6,400 m), but fuel starvation problems and poor supercharger performance at higher altitudes meant that this figure was never achieved in combat; the B-339E was no different in this regard. Its maneuverability was severely impaired (the aircraft was unable to perform loops), and initial rate of climb was reduced to 2,300 ft/min. The Wright Cyclone 1890-G-105 engine designated for use in the Brewster Mk I was in short supply; many aircraft were fitted with secondhand Wright engines sourced from Douglas DC-3 airliners and rebuilt to G105 or G102A specifications by Wright.[18] In service, some effort was made by at least one Brewster squadron to improve the type's sluggish performance; a few aircraft were lightened by some 1,000 lb (450 kg) by removing armor plate, armored windshields, radios, gun camera, and all other unnecessary equipment, and by replacing all .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns with two .303 in (7.7 mm) cowling guns. The fuselage tanks were filled with a minimum of fuel, and run on high-octane aviation petrol where available. At Alor Star airfield in Malaya, the Japanese captured over 1,000 barrels (160 m3) of high-octane aviation petrol from British forces, which they promptly used in their own fighter aircraft"


Vic Bargh, pilot over Rangoon:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/bargh.htm
(very interesting read, must be diary notes)

Also on another interesting note: Dates and numbers produced:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/prod.htm

My words:
In-game the Brewster is arguably more than a match for the A6M2. While the Zero has a slightly tighter turn radius, the Brew dives infinitely better, retains more E for zooming, can instantly set the zero on fire, and had quad .50s. In real life the Brew was almost toothless and almost defenseless. It wasn't a matter of pilot skill as much as the guns would fire 1 burst, the planes lacked much armor, they couldn't hope to turn against japanese planes and the main way to survive was to dive straight down and run from a fight. They encountered far far more nimble Ki-43s and Nates and other planes that put even a A6M2 to shame in turn radius.

it's a bit like putting a Spit5 in for a spit1, IMO. If we're going that route, so be it. It's already decided. I'm just discussing it on the forums for the sake of it.