Author Topic: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)  (Read 3367 times)

Offline WldWeasl

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
      • NoseArt
Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« on: March 31, 2011, 12:12:19 PM »
I'm curious as to the reason for the selection of the aircraft mentioned above.  I know that the A6M2 for the Ki-43 makes sense but I'm not sure why we aren't using the Hurricane II's in the scenario instead of the Hurricane I's. 

There were in fact Mk II's in theater in 1942, and it seems that the 135 Sqd. did in fact fly IIa's and IIb's during this time. 

Can someone explain to me the rationale of upgrading (significantly) the Ki-43 to the A6M2 (and then A6M5) and NOT using the planeset (Mk IIb's) that were ACTUALLY in theater?

I know I'm a noob in the scenario world... but this seems like a fair question..

WldWeasl

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4661
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 12:15:07 PM »
Alies had Hurr Is. End of discussion. They also had F2A Buffaloes and we are substituting it with the B-239. Same goes for the Ki 43 and Ki 44. Both are being substituted along with the Dinah.
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline Fencer51

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4677
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 12:41:43 PM »
Timeframe: January to first week of March.

Hurricanes at Rangoon were Mk IIa for One Seven and IIb for One Three Five Squadrons.  However, there is no way in heck I am going to put the IIC we have currently in place for a substitution.  Those 4 hispanos would shred the Betties and ruin the event.

A6M5 is substituting for the KI-44, not the KI-43.

And its the "Nick", not the Dinah, the "original" writeup by DoKtOr GoNzO had that wrong and I missed it when I updated the planeset.
Fencer
The names of the irrelevant have been changed to protect their irrelevance.
The names of the innocent and the guilty have not been changed.
As for the innocent, everyone needs to know they are innocent –
As for the guilty… they can suck it.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 12:45:00 PM »
Alies had Hurr Is. End of discussion. They also had F2A Buffaloes and we are substituting it with the B-239. Same goes for the Ki 43 and Ki 44. Both are being substituted along with the Dinah.

You are starting to speak with such authority.  Problem is you are dead wrong.  Hurri IIs were the Burma birds. 
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline WldWeasl

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
      • NoseArt
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 12:55:26 PM »
Right,

135 flew Hurricane Mk IIb's.  Obviously the major difference was firepower... 12 Browning MG's vs 8 Browning MG's.  Regardless of what plane the A6M2 is replacing, it's a significant upgrade.  If you're substituting, why wouldn't you at least do planeset to planeset...meaning...Mk I's vs A6M2 for the required frames.. but then Mk II (either C or D) vs A6M5 for later frames?

Or.. skew numbers (1 more Sentai for example)...

Just asking..



Offline Fencer51

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4677
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 12:58:53 PM »
Hurricanes at Rangoon were Mk IIa for One Seven and IIb for One Three Five Squadrons.  However, there is no way in heck I am going to put the IIC we have currently in place for a substitution.  Those 4 hispanos would shred the Betties and ruin the event.
Fencer
The names of the irrelevant have been changed to protect their irrelevance.
The names of the innocent and the guilty have not been changed.
As for the innocent, everyone needs to know they are innocent –
As for the guilty… they can suck it.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 01:01:01 PM »
Much more understandable in red  :aok
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline WldWeasl

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
      • NoseArt
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 01:06:35 PM »
So let me get this straight...it's ok to significantly upgrade the firepower of the Japanese planeset but it's NOT ok to upgrade the allied planeset in order to "protect" the Japanese planeset? 

Just trying to figure out the constraints that I will be flying under. 


Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 01:11:27 PM »
So let me get this straight...it's ok to significantly upgrade the firepower of the Japanese planeset but it's NOT ok to upgrade the allied planeset in order to "protect" the Japanese planeset? 

Just trying to figure out the constraints that I will be flying under. 



There is nothing in the Japanese plane set for this scenario that has anything remotely as deadly as the (4) laser guided Hizookas on the Hurri C
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline WldWeasl

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
      • NoseArt
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 01:18:44 PM »
I'm sure that there's been some discussion as to "equality" in equipment for the scenario.  If it's not logical to include the IIc for lethality reasons, I can buy that.... but is there a way to "tweak" the Mk I to more closely resemble the IIb's that were actually flown?  Especially due to the "upgrade" to the "Zero" in this scenario. 

Then again, I AM flying the Hurricane along side "The Few"..so I'm sure there are some tricks I'll learn along the way...

Weasl

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 01:26:09 PM »
I have read that a number of the IIbs even removed the outboard guns, feelign they weren't worth the weight and loss of roll. Effectively flying as a slightly faster Mk.Ia (the Mk.IIa).

IMO the firepower of 2cs is so much more than 2as or 2bs that you cannot substitute those planes.

I do find subbing in the cannon-wielding zekes for the 13.7mm MG-wielding Kis to be a bit of a stretch, but we don't have much to swap in, do we?

I almost think the C.202 would be a better match, only it's not nearly as manuverable.

I-16 with cannons disabled might be a good sub for early Ki-43s, only the range just won't work in this setup. You'd have to dumb down the fuel burn to 0.2 or less.


Although... the C2 idea is looking somewhat interesting now... Maybe use it as the sub for Ki-44? It's got the speed and similar guns.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 01:41:32 PM »
I'm sure that there's been some discussion as to "equality" in equipment for the scenario.  If it's not logical to include the IIc for lethality reasons, I can buy that.... but is there a way to "tweak" the Mk I to more closely resemble the IIb's that were actually flown?  Especially due to the "upgrade" to the "Zero" in this scenario. 

Then again, I AM flying the Hurricane along side "The Few"..so I'm sure there are some tricks I'll learn along the way...

Weasl

I suppose you weren't around when Schatzi was flying?   

Need tips?    :devil

http://www.slowcat.de/slowcats1/films/TNFS.wmv
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2011, 01:47:00 PM »
Let's not forget tropical filters on the hurr2Bs... Didn't they add quite a bit of drag?

End result is the 1a isn't too far off, if that's the case. The only difference being the negative G cutout on the engine.

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15462
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »
A Hurri IIa is a Hurr I with a more-reliable engine (which doesn't matter in AH terms).   A Hurri IIb is a Hurri I with bomb racks (not applicable to this battle, and slightly slower, by the way) and two more 303's (not that big a deal).  Thus Hurri IIa and IIb are about the same as a I.  A IIc is not at all the same as a I, is a poor fit for what was there, and would be hugely unblancing in this fight.

As a person who signed up for Hurri I's in this event, I'm not that worried about it.  8 303's that spray out a huge cloud of projectiles might be quite excellent weapons against Japanese planes that are the most flammable in the game.  Regardless, I want to fly, fight, and win my victories in the more-historical Hurri I!  :aok

Now, one could argue that D3A's are a more accurate subsitution than a6m2's -- but we figured no one would sign up to fly d3a's as a fighter substitution, we'd get nothing but grief, and we don't have the luxury of trying registration then changing it if it doesn't work.  (Of course, if we had the more-realistic d3a as a main Japanese fighter, we should have a more-realistic ratio, like 5:1 Japanese odds or something, and again very likely get no one signing up.)  The registration process and timeline is more like maneuvering a battleship than like maneuvering a PT boat.  You can't try it out, stop it if things aren't working, change things around radically, restart it, and have things proceed on plan.  You can't slolom around with it.  You have to pick a direction and go for it.

For the Japanese plane set, the a6m5 is in there because the Brewster model we have is perhaps better than the Brewster model that was there; and to even things out some the other way, the allies have some P-40E's, which weren't there early on.

The c.202 isn't a good fit for any Japanese plane in this fight.  It is enormously faster and handles well at very high speeds, which is radically different than the Japanese plane set.  Armament is only one of many dimensions to consider.

Scenarios aim for realism and playability, and those features often pull in opposite directions that require tradeoffs.  Not everyone is going to agree with the tradeoffs that are made, no matter what those tradeoffs are.  The scenario team picks things based on those goals and its experience in running scenarios.  It might not be perfect, but it's our best guess at what best balances realism and playability.

Offline Babalonian

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5817
      • Pigs on the Wing
Re: Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2011, 03:13:39 PM »
So let me get this straight...it's ok to significantly upgrade the firepower of the Japanese planeset but it's NOT ok to upgrade the allied planeset in order to "protect" the Japanese planeset? 

Just trying to figure out the constraints that I will be flying under. 



We're talking the difference between .303-ball (Hurri IIa and IIb) and 20mm-HEF with an upgraded engine (IIc).  That's an extremely wide margin and gap.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.