What to do after T+60 and no action

[daddog]

Gents,

NoTch sent me a PM that got me thinking. I want to encourage any squad that is defending a target to contact the Setup CM if after 60 minutes the target has not been hit.

This can accomplish two things.
1. The Setup CM can find out if the target is still going to be hit by asking the CiC. If by chance the attacking force was intercepted, a mistake on the part of the CiC, no-show of a squad, etc. then the defending squad can possibly be redirected for some action elsewhere.
2. The Setup CM can also let the Admin CM know and he can apply any penalties when he scores the frame.

In the past I have asked the Setup CM to find out if a target is going to be attacked after we have been over it for an hour. It is rare, but it happens. If it does you should let the Setup CM know on 202. It is not any fun for anyone to fly around for an hour, let alone two hours without any action. If things go as planned everyone in FSO should see action, but sometimes not. Maybe the Setup CM can help.

<S>

[noTch]

IN,  My thought was how to get some action on those low number nights  

[ghostdancer]

Could be sort of problematic since you check in with the setup CM and find out the original task force assign to hit the target is destroyed. However, say 20 minutes later the CiC on that side gathers up survivors of nearby operations / first strikes and re-assigns them to hit the base that was not attack by T+60.

So you could go T+62, original attack force is destroyed / not coming. Defenders thinking nothing is coming now do something else. Then at T+82 an adhoc attack force is now put together by the CiC and is coming. Base gets hit and defenders now go but the setup CM said it was not going to be attacked.

Sort of run the risk of damned if you do and damned if you don't when re-tasking.

[noTch]

Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle.  My original thought was if a mission to attack was aborted say due to a squad not showing up or not enough for a credible force, then said CiC would absorb or dissolve the original mission & quickly integrate the extra bodies into already formed plans. Let the admin CM know, and at that point the admin CM could leak to the opposing CiC that an attack will not be happening so they could absorb & redistribute the manpower. All before the frame starts or shortly there after   Then before you know it, Bob's your uncle

I don't really know what would be the perfect solution to flying for a full hour, just to find out that there weren't enough enemy clobber. As morbid as that sounds. The reality of war was that when it happened that the enemy couldn't make it to target, the warrior was actually happy he didn't have to fight anybody.  Kinda backward in our little slice of virtual battleground. But that is how we like it

[Chapel]

Yea it's a pretty difficult line to tow especially from a CiC perspective too.
I think that's why there's penalties in place.
What you could do is the following:

Your a squad defending a base and T+60 rolls around, and your sure that your target hasn't been attacked. You ensure this by sending at least 1 pilot down to assess damage.
I know while directing frame 1, a squad contacted me and said that A2 was not hit and it was past T+60, however when I jumped over there, a hanger and radar tower was down. The attacking force had just snuck in under them.

So you have ensured your target is pristine...

Contact your sides CiC on 150, and then remain on station.
The CiC then can PM the setup CM, who can contact the opposing sides CiC and inquire about the situation.
If the attacking force was intercepted, was delayed, is just late....he'll know. He should inform the Setup CM if he intends to divert planes and if so, responds that an attack is coming or not.

At this point the setup CM can relay information to the CiC of the target, and he can make the call to shift the CAP someplace else for action. This ensures that everyone gets to have some fun, hopefully.
It should incur a severe penalty however, if the attacking CiC states that no aircraft will be attacking that base, and then some do.

[ghostdancer]

Chapel I disagree with the severe penalty about if the CiC says there will be no attack on a base and then some do. Basically until he evaluates the results of the others attacks and see what disposable forces he has left and rearmed he doesn't know if he will be able to conduct an ad hoc attack or not which might be 10, 20, or more later. So the only thing he can really answer is:

1) The originally attack force is late (giving intel to the enemy - they will already be penalized for being late)
2) The originally attack force is intercepted and not coming
3) The originally attack force is intercepted but survivors coming but will be late (again giving info to the other side)
4) The squad(s) assigned to the original attack didn't turn out.

At that juncture that is all he really knows and that now he has a target not hit and to start seeing if he can pull together resources to hit it.

Also lets says he goes, the original attack force is not coming. An ad hoc attack force will be coming. Then lets say that attack force is intercepted and destroyed or driven off by other defenders, not the ones assigned to defend the base. You would be back to the same situation.

Battle is fluid and things happen. If a CiC wants to pull his defenders and re-task after T+60 that is his choice and his gamble and many CiCs have retasked forces in the past. Some CiCs don't actively retask forces after evaluating results though which at times does leave squads in the lurch as a battle plays out. Also note that there is no penalty for defenders leaving their base for other missions at T+60.

[Spikes]

I know while directing frame 1, a squad contacted me and said that A2 was not hit and it was past T+60, however when I jumped over there, a hanger and radar tower was down. The attacking force had just snuck in under them.

Yeah and a single plane could do that kind of damage. 1 hanger and a radar tower? Doesn't seem like much of an attacking force to me.
We saw a few cons IB however we ignored them and left them to other squads, one because we were in A6Ms and can't go over 50 mph and two because we were expecting B29s.

[ghostdancer]

Spikes that depends. If -only- one plane was assigned to hit the base that is a rules violation. If a credible attack force was assigned and only 1 plane or 2 planes did damage to the base but snuck in and were not seen that is not a violation. Or if other squads slaughtered the attack force and only a few got through again it would be credible. As you point out this can happen when multiple squads are assigned to defend a single base. One of those squads could engage while others don't for various reasons.

[oakranger]

What are we to do if the Task Group was not placed in the area that intl gave us. This has happen to my squad as we wasted 40 min of flying to our target and 20 min trying to find it. Come to finding out that the TG was not placed in the area before the event started. 

[ghostdancer]

Fire off a PM to the setup CM and ask him if the TG is actually located somewhere in the containment area. Him answering this is not giving any intel away since it is supposed to be there. But it will help catch if it was A) incorrectly set or B) sailed out of the containment area do to somebody setting a course that would cause that.

[daddog]

At this point the setup CM can relay information to the CiC of the target, and he can make the call to shift the CAP someplace else for action. This ensures that everyone gets to have some fun, hopefully.
It should incur a severe penalty however, if the attacking CiC states that no aircraft will be attacking that base, and then some do.

I agree Chapel. I can't see why a CiC would state no aircraft would attack a target, then some do unless their was a break down of communication. If they are gong to be late then let the Setup CM know who can pass it on. If they were intercepted then again he can let the Setup CM know and he can pass it on, or finally if they were a no-show the CiC should let the Setup CM know and the squad that has been circling for an hour still might have a chance for some fun.

The point of this thread is simple. Contact the Setup CM after T+60 and let him know. Hopefully he can find out what is going on and assist the CiC in getting that squad redirected if necessary.

Happened to my squad too oakranger. Use that Setup CM.

[Chapel]

Yeah and a single plane could do that kind of damage. 1 hanger and a radar tower? Doesn't seem like much of an attacking force to me.
We saw a few cons IB however we ignored them and left them to other squads, one because we were in A6Ms and can't go over 50 mph and two because we were expecting B29s.

The Kommando's were assigned Zekes, and the orders laid out their plan to sweep low for NOE TBM's. Perdweeb contacted me concerned about the defenders not having enough aircraft, and not having any NIK's or Franks in the area. I told him that Zekes should be fine with the cover of Ki-61's because only F4U's and F6F's along with TBM's were going to be attacking that area, but that I had a large squad in NIK's able to shift if needed.

If you were under the impression that B-29's would be attacking that base, then it's because your CO was mistaken, and misunderstood his assignment.

A single plane COULD do that kind of damage, but at that point the A6M5's were supposed to be trolling low for TBM's attacking NOE anyway.
It sounds like your squad missed out on action, because you ignored the aircraft that your assignment was specifically supposed to defend against.

@Ghostdancer - After having thought about that, I'd agree that you can't just inform the opposing CiC that they don't intend to attack....because there's just to many wild card elements in FSO's, and it'd be completely plausable for a single aircraft, or even a squad to hit the base on their own at a later time. The CiC can't know everything, and imposing a large penalty based on that wouldn't be fair.

[ghostdancer]

Agreed Chapel. A CiC can say my original strike was tasked to hit by T+60 is not coming but anything beyond that there are just to many variables. So after T+60 the defenders have to decided to stick around in case of an ad hoc attack, completely retask to do something else, or leave some in place while others retask to something else.

[daddog]

@Ghostdancer - After having thought about that, I'd agree that you can't just inform the opposing CiC that they don't intend to attack....because there's just to many wild card elements in FSO's, and it'd be completely plausable for a single aircraft, or even a squad to hit the base on their own at a later time. The CiC can't know everything, and imposing a large penalty based on that wouldn't be fair.

Right. What you guys are saying make sense, (after thinking about it too). 

Still contact the Setup CM after T+60. See what is going on and maybe get some answers and action at another location or if an attack is on the way. Beyond that the Admin CM's can decide what penalty's if any need to be applied.

[WxMan]

Why all the wrangling about contacting this guy or that guy.

The CM's made a rule, many years ago. All targets must be attacked by T+60. Seems simple enough to me.  The premise has been if the target was not attacked by the deadline, no points would be allowed for any damage and a penalty would be assessed, no matter what the reason.  Seems it is a win for the defenders of that target who then can go hunting or be reassigned by their CiC.

Stop making this more difficult than it has to be. Stop all the lawyering.