Author Topic: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)  (Read 21862 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #240 on: August 31, 2011, 03:40:10 PM »
Pervert I think the main source of confusion here is that you were stating you could match the Spit turn rate ( you can't  :D ) and what you were showing was an advantage from your speed in a low  G turn if the Spit chose to match your turn rate.  :old:

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Offline Karnak

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #241 on: August 31, 2011, 03:55:43 PM »
I understand what your trying to say here Stoney but if its useful in game for me to make a low G sustained turn why should I limit myself by the rules of flight testing? It is literally G of a turn at its extreme low end. Why would that need to be excluded if in certain situations it can help you out?
No one is saying you should limit yourself.  We are saying you should use the correct terms to describe what you are doing.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #242 on: August 31, 2011, 11:57:34 PM »
I understand what your trying to say here Stoney but if its useful in game for me to make a low G sustained turn why should I limit myself by the rules of flight testing? It is literally G of a turn at its extreme low end. Why would that need to be excluded if in certain situations it can help you out?

By no means was I saying don't do it.  Its a valid way to gain separation in a FW-190.  I was merely trying to get you to understand what your statement meant in aerodynamic terms--nothing else.
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Offline Charge

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #243 on: September 01, 2011, 02:09:43 AM »
Oops, sorry for using wrong terminology from my part too.

As turn rate means degrees per second the Th in Th/Ki example does not have higher turn rate than Ki I merely suggested that it's just able to fly a low G circle faster than Ki. But is that true?

What I mean is that if HWL (high wing loaded plane) stays at low G it will produce less parasitic drag while maneuvering compared to LWL at same speed (if we consider thrust and weight to be the same with these a/c)?

If that is not the case then there is practically no sense in putting a small wing to an aircraft as it will always be inferior in everything except drag creation at low level flight and at higher altitudes it is worse even in that sense?

When looking at FW190A8 it seems that 2000HP is not producing same speeds as its allied contemporaries with less HP. What is wrong then, propeller, form drag, too small wing?

-C+
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Offline save

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #244 on: September 01, 2011, 03:57:39 AM »
"When looking at FW190A8 it seems that 2000HP is not producing same speeds as its allied contemporaries with less HP. What is wrong then, propeller, form drag, too small wing?"


According to Baumer, in a previous thread he proved, with orginal documents , the Fw190a8 to be considerably overweight in Aces High.

I also suspect we have the most basic version, without paddle propeller etc.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #245 on: September 01, 2011, 08:05:07 AM »
Oops, sorry for using wrong terminology from my part too.

As turn rate means degrees per second the Th in Th/Ki example does not have higher turn rate than Ki I merely suggested that it's just able to fly a low G circle faster than Ki. But is that true?

I would assume so.  P-40 should be faster than a Ki-43, so theoretically it could use a similar technique as what Perv showed in his film.  Any near-1G maneuvering will focus on the speed of the aircraft, rather than its turn ability, for example.

Quote
What I mean is that if HWL (high wing loaded plane) stays at low G it will produce less parasitic drag while maneuvering compared to LWL at same speed (if we consider thrust and weight to be the same with these a/c)?

When you say HWL, are you assuming that wing area is the same, and its merely weight that's increasing the wing load?  Because that makes a huge difference.  Also, IN GENERAL, maneuvering doesn't create parasitic drag.  That's a constant in almost all cases, unless you drop flaps, drop the gear, or hold your arm out of the cockpit. :)  Induced drag, on the other hand, and form drag to a certain extent, are the culprits when considering the effects of maneuvering on drag.  In a hard turn, the Cdi goes through the roof, and while a HWL aircraft may have a low Cdi at high speed and flying straight and level, its Cdi in a hard turn will be enormous, comparatively speaking, in conditions of hard turning, climbing, or low dynamic pressure conditions (i.e. high altitude anything, or sea level slow speeds).

Quote
If that is not the case then there is practically no sense in putting a small wing to an aircraft as it will always be inferior in everything except drag creation at low level flight and at higher altitudes it is worse even in that sense?

Well, I suppose it depends on the mission of the aircraft and the tactics used.  Japanese design philosophy of the era concentrated on "furball" type dogfighting ability, and so they made light, lightly wing-loaded aircraft that turned on a dime.  In doing so, they accepted the tradeoff that meant their aircraft were slow and practically unarmored.  If you're designing an "interceptor" type aircraft, that has design criteria that focus on speed and don't intend for them to maneuver hard, then small wings that reduce drag are logical.  Even today, a lot of the newer, high-technology GA airplanes that have hit the scene in the last 10-15 years, like the Lancair aircraft, have high wing-loading so that they can achieve higher cruise speeds.  And, our current military fighters, to some extent, use tiny wings matched with enormous amounts of thrust (and complex control surface systems) to achieve both very high speeds and some measure of maneuverability.  Remember that the FW-190 series shares similar turning qualities as the most "successful" U.S. fighters like the P-47, P-51, etc. in a clean condition.  The biggest difference for the 190 is that it doesn't develop nearly the amount of power at high altitudes as the Jug or Pony.  Personally, I see some serious genius in Tank's design, its just that, in my opinion, the powerplants (excepting the 190D to some extent) were underpowered compared to their U.S. peers.  If he'd had a 2800 HP powerplant available, like the R-2800 C series, late in the war, the late model FW-190As would be different beasts entirely.

Quote
When looking at FW190A8 it seems that 2000HP is not producing same speeds as its allied contemporaries with less HP. What is wrong then, propeller, form drag, too small wing?

It all boils down to power available vs. power required.  The P-47, for example, performs so well at altitude, not because of its aerodynamic properties (its still big and heavy), but because its still making sea-level power at 30,000 feet.  The Merlin doesn't maintain nearly as much power at the same altitude, but because of the aerodynamic properties of the aircraft, the P-51 still has the excess power necessary to perform at high altitude.  Unfortunately for the 190A series, both its aerodynamic properties (small wing) and its powerplant suffer at altitude.  And, at sea level, the FW-190 is much more competitive with both aircraft, even though its aerodynamic properties still create issues with respect to turning.

I've glossed over some details here, but in general, this, in my opinion, is both the reason why Tank designed the plane the way he did, and also the reason it performs the way it does.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #246 on: September 01, 2011, 08:40:44 AM »
In a hard turn, the Cdi goes through the roof, and while a HWL aircraft may have a low Cdi at high speed and flying straight and level, its Cdi in a hard turn will be enormous, comparatively speaking, in conditions of hard turning, climbing, or low dynamic pressure conditions (i.e. high altitude anything, or sea level slow speeds).

QFT. Elaborating on Stoney's statement, recall that Cdi = kCl^2. Turning a highly wingloaded ac means the required Cl will be quite high, comparatively, since the lift needed to maintain the turn will be much greater than weight, given that the ac is banked. Further, because of the high wingloading and because that lift will be a function of dyn press, ref area, and Cl, The induced is going to be like throwing out an anchor.

Perve's intuitive approach is entirely correct - don't turn that monster much. That's a big part of the reason I've left the Dora, mostly. The temptation to stay locked on Spitty's six is overwhelming - and a good way to get killed.
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Offline Charge

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #247 on: September 01, 2011, 11:18:08 AM »
What I'm trying to undestand is that is there some amount of turn where the small wing is more efficient than a bigger one. I'm not talking about a break turn of 4-6Gs but something up to 3Gs, highest, as it seems that at those accelerations 190s can still be quite competitive without dumping too much energy. Or is the negative effect of wingloading purely linear to G loading meaning that e.g. the negative effects of high wing loading of A8 is just not that evident in smaller G loads?

Coincidentally I have noticed that my survival rate in dogfight is doubled when I lose the other elevator in A8...

-C+
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #248 on: September 01, 2011, 11:47:53 AM »

http://youtu.be/Vjk9Ux2COx0
The advantage of this movie is that it uses drifting particles to visualize the flow instead of smoke. Smoke trails tend to stick to the laminar flow and do not highlight the rotational flow behind the wing. Some of the smoke is sheared and enter the vortex, but then it is well mixed and look like uniform faint haze, so it is hard to see - this is why it is named "separation" of the air flow. The air does not really leave the wing (no vacuum over it which would actually increase lift..) it is the smoke lines used in wind tunnels that give this impression.

The transition in many cases is not as sudden as you might think. The large circular patters on the trailing edge starts to wobble and small vortices break off of it before it is completely destroyed. This instability is part of the buffeting. You can see it in this movie (this time with smoke, notice the difference in what you see vs. the other movie):
http://youtu.be/6UlsArvbTeo

These films are really interesting and I wanted to point out the backwards terminology of aerodynamics. This is because we see what's happening from the perspective of the aircraft. If we look at it the alternative way, from the perspective of the air or a otherwise stationary object, we may gain a better understanding of what is actually going on. In the second film, the air volume above the wing is not actually moving faster but is less affected by the wing than the air volume below the stagnation point. Pressure builds up below the wing and this simply slows the air down (the wing is in the way), actually the aircraft drag this air along with it (accelerating it if you will) for some distance before letting go of it as the pressure drop, that generates lift as well as drag. The lower pressure above the wing is less able to affect that body of air, and so much less drag is induced from the air volume above the wing.

That aircraft has the least drag which is able to pass through any given body of air and affect it (disturb it) the least.

In this context all tractor prop configurations are really bad because of the dirty nature of the prop disc and slipstream effect over fuselage and wing(s).


If I recall this correctly the first versions of the 190 outturned the 109. It must have been the 109 E/F model at that time, and the first production run models of the Anton which are in question. As the 190 was burdened with heavier armament and armor, performance suffered profoundly. The 190 was not a big aircraft by any standards, and any additional weight had huge impact on wing loading.

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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #249 on: September 01, 2011, 12:59:08 PM »
I found a russian site about the fw190a8 tactics on the eastern front , I was most surprised that according to these russian resources Fw190a8 could outrun / give too slow catchup to prevent guns use.

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/fw190a7.shtml

If you compare that to what Fw190a8 represents in AH , its slower / much slower at the deck, but  RL speed gave  the 190a8 survivability in many cases.

Can't say with a high degree of certainty, but this 'might' be because of the generally poor condition of the frontline VVS fighters. They were not built as factory prototypes nor maintained and operated as such. This is the vice of russian engineering and always has been. They can build excellent prototypes and tech demonstrators but when it comes to series production quality and field manintenance standards it's a different story.

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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #250 on: September 01, 2011, 01:06:01 PM »
From what I understand, changing the simulation for the sake of playability is one of the things that doomed Warbirds.

You can add 'Fighter Ace' to that list.

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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #251 on: September 01, 2011, 01:30:38 PM »
You can add 'Fighter Ace' to that list.

See, they should put each type in a row and have several rows of differnet types. You, in your "fighter" would move left or right to shoot these rows as they get closer and closer. If they get all the way to your "fighter", you lose that fighter. If you shoot the special flashing fighter, you power up with extra BFG's under your wings - and they'll annihilate all of the enemy "fighters". If you do this, you go to the "next level" where you're now facing rows of "attack aircraft". Now THAT'S historical realism. 

And, oh yeah, you need like a hyperspace button so that the dude with the faygo redpop and the bong and twinkies can hit it if he gets in trouble.
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #252 on: September 01, 2011, 01:40:37 PM »
Personally, I see some serious genius in Tank's design, its just that, in my opinion, the powerplants (excepting the 190D to some extent) were underpowered compared to their U.S. peers.  If he'd had a 2800 HP powerplant available, like the R-2800 C series, late in the war, the late model FW-190As would be different beasts entirely.

QFT

Simply put, Tank had the engine late in the war, but not the time.

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Offline Karnak

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #253 on: September 01, 2011, 02:08:15 PM »
"When looking at FW190A8 it seems that 2000HP is not producing same speeds as its allied contemporaries with less HP. What is wrong then, propeller, form drag, too small wing?"


According to Baumer, in a previous thread he proved, with orginal documents , the Fw190a8 to be considerably overweight in Aces High.

I also suspect we have the most basic version, without paddle propeller etc.
Dunno if the paddle propeller would help it, speedwise.  On the Mosquito all it did was increase acceleration at low speeds, top speed was the same with both the paddle bladed and needle bladed props.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #254 on: September 01, 2011, 02:46:09 PM »
What I'm trying to undestand is that is there some amount of turn where the small wing is more efficient than a bigger one. I'm not talking about a break turn of 4-6Gs but something up to 3Gs, highest, as it seems that at those accelerations 190s can still be quite competitive without dumping too much energy. Or is the negative effect of wingloading purely linear to G loading meaning that e.g. the negative effects of high wing loading of A8 is just not that evident in smaller G loads?

Coincidentally I have noticed that my survival rate in dogfight is doubled when I lose the other elevator in A8...

-C+


I don't know enough to answer this one yes or no.  I think that if power and aspect ratio is held constant, the answer would be "no".  The impact the load factor has on the Cdi is too great.  Fighting it as light as possible will certainly help performance the most.  I know when I used to take up 190s, I'd almost always carry only the normal 2X20mm load to reduce weight as much as possible.  Gliders use very high aspect ratio wings, while keeping wing area as small as possible, in order to achieve reductions in both induced and parasitic drag, but they aren't subject to the same requirements as a normal, powered aircraft.  The power is the key up to stall AoA.  A P-47M with only about 1/4 tank and half the ammo remaining gets pretty sprightly with 2800 HP behind it, even though its wingloading at takeoff weight is about the same or worse than a 190.

Perhaps there could be some sort of trade study conducted to determine the "optimum" condition for an aircraft based on that 3G turn restriction, but I don't know yet that I'm capable of figuring that out.  I know there was a period when I was doing the initial design layout of my Formula 1 aircraft where I was trying to determine the proper tradeoff between a number of factors in order to create the optimal design for the Formula 1 course at Reno, but I failed to determine how best to do it.  So, I merely settled on making it weigh as little as possible.

Good questions though Charge!   :aok
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