Author Topic: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)  (Read 22001 times)

Offline moot

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2011, 11:30:21 PM »
No kidding.  Imagine a 190 with that.  Or a 38 without em.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2011, 12:36:09 AM »
No kidding.  Imagine a 190 with that.  Or a 38 without em.

The Fowler flaps on the 38 probably only existed because they couldn't run the flaps outside of the booms and therefore need a more effective flap for the area they had to work with.  Fowlers, by themselves aren't that big of a deal...


@ Moot...  I determined an induced Coefficient of Drag (Cdi) for the Ta-152 at stall that's a little more than 30% lower than an A-Model 190.  Just shows you how much that long wing helps out at slow speeds.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2011, 12:43:41 AM »
The Fowler flaps on the 38 probably only existed because they couldn't run the flaps outside of the booms and therefore need a more effective flap for the area they had to work with.  Fowlers, by themselves aren't that big of a deal...


@ Moot...  I determined an induced Coefficient of Drag (Cdi) for the Ta-152 at stall that's a little more than 30% lower than an A-Model 190.  Just shows you how much that long wing helps out at slow speeds.


Stoney,
PM me if you want, I don't want to hijack the thread, but if you don't mind me asking, how did you calculate that?

Thanks
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Offline Karnak

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2011, 12:49:14 AM »
As I recall, Nakajima added fowler flaps to the Ki-43 due to the customer's complaints that it lacked adequate maneuverability in combat.  I would expect the Ki-84's were there for the same reason.
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Offline moot

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2011, 01:09:42 AM »
I thought fowlers were a big deal because they were much better aerodynamically:  that they better conformed to the ideal shape for flaps?  IE extra lift with less drag compared to split flaps that are just plain dirty, plain flaps that comparatively bend the foil shape too abruptly...  and slotted flaps only marginally better than plain flaps?  So would a slotted flap and fowler flap of equal surface areas be only marginally different, in effectiveness? Is the slotted flap usually worse in the game only because they're smaller than the typical in-game fowler?

So the 152H's flaps are that much more efficient because of their aspect ratio.. This is the same general dynamic that makes the 152H wing better for E retention in instantaneous turns?
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2011, 01:13:33 AM »
Stoney,
PM me if you want, I don't want to hijack the thread, but if you don't mind me asking, how did you calculate that?

Thanks

First, you determine the Clmax from the stall speed.  I got a stall speed of 107mph IAS at S.L. and 10711 lbs (25% fuel I believe).

The formula for determining Clmax is:

(W/S) / .5 * p * V^2 where (or more simply, wingloading / dynamic pressure):

W/S = Wingloading
p = density of air (in slugs)
V = stall speed (in feet/sec)

Once you've determined Clmax you can continue on to the formula for induced drag coefficient (since induced drag is a function of lift and wing efficiency)

The formula for determining Cdi is:

Clmax^2 / pi * e * AR where:

Clmax = max lift coefficient computed from the first formula
pi = 3.14...
e = Oswald's Efficiency number (more on that next)
AR = Aspect ratio

For Oswald's Efficiency number, there are a couple ways to do it, with the first and most imprecise being to simply estimate it at about .8, but I did an approximation based on another formula I have, which gives the Ta-152 an "e" of approx. .78.  For most other of the aircraft in the planeset, you can use an approximation of about .87 or .88 (which is most appropriate for those aircraft with an aspect ratio of 6 or so).

Now, my results might not be spot on real world numbers due to the fact they are sort of best estimations, but the comparison between the different aircraft is probably very close.  With the other 190's, I got a Cdi of around .13 and with the 152 came up with around .9
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2011, 01:42:06 AM »
I thought fowlers were a big deal because they were much better aerodynamically:  that they better conformed to the ideal shape for flaps?  IE extra lift with less drag compared to split flaps that are just plain dirty, plain flaps that comparatively bend the foil shape too abruptly...  and slotted flaps only marginally better than plain flaps?  So would a slotted flap and fowler flap of equal surface areas be only marginally different, in effectiveness? Is the slotted flap usually worse in the game only because they're smaller than the typical in-game fowler?

So the 152H's flaps are that much more efficient because of their aspect ratio.. This is the same general dynamic that makes the 152H wing better for E retention in instantaneous turns?

Think of plain, slotted, and fowler flaps as different tools the designer has to work with.  The purpose of flaps is to better configure the aircraft for landing--don't think of them in any other fashion.  

Next, planes stall at Clmax, and landing speeds are usually a function of stall speed (Vs).  Typically, landing speed is 1.2-1.3 X Vs.

Now, from my formula I posted in the previous post, you can see that Clmax = wingloading / dynamic pressure.  We know that all wings stall at a given angle-of-attack.  If a designer is trying to hit a specified landing speed (say, Vought when they designed the Corsair to conform with the Navy spec on carrier landing speeds), he can either increase the wing area or Clmax, or decrease the weight of the aircraft in order to hit that target landing speed.  If you increase the wing area, stall speed decreases, and thus landing speed is lower.  But, if you increase wing area, you add weight and drag.  If the designers considers changing the airfoil to increase Clmax, stall speed decreases, and thus the landing speed decreases.  But, changing the airfoil may decrease top speed due to it being optimized for more high-lift conditions.  The designer could then consider reducing the weight of the aircraft, but to do so, a host of other tradeoffs would be required.  So, the designer is stuck.  Flaps provide him/her with an answer to the problem.

Now, each aircraft only has a fixed amount of wing that can be "flapped"--basically the limit is the distance between the inboard end of the aileron and the wing root.  Some aircraft, such as the P-38, introduce another portion of the wing that can't be "flapped".  So, he/she has a fixed length of the wing with which to place the flaps.  So, now he's determined how long the flaps can be, and has considered how much he needs to reduce the landing speed.  So, with this knowledge, he begins to analyze which type and size of flaps will help him achieve his specified landing speed.  Plain flaps are the simplest, have the lightest installed weight (typically) but are the least efficient.  Slotted are more efficient, but add mechanical complexity and more weight.  Fowlers are the most mechanically complex, heaviest, but are the most efficient per foot of flapped area, since the increased wing area and increased camber combine to make them very effective per foot of flapped area.  So, you could rationalize that if the flapped area of the wing is restricted (say on the P-38 for example), Fowlers could be a good solution since the extra weight and mechanical complexity would be lessened (due to fewer feet of flapped area), and the aerodynamic benefits maximized.  However, on a plane that doesn't limit the flapped area, a designer may be able to achieve a sufficient reduction in landing speed with plain or slotted flaps, avoiding the extra complexity and weight.  Obviously if weight and complexity aren't an issue (which would occur very rarely in aircraft design), Fowlers would be ideal.  But, since everything in aircraft design is a tradeoff, sometimes good-enough, is.

To truly determine which flaps are "best" between dissimilar aircraft, you'd need to test each aircraft without flaps and with full flaps, then compare which one provides the highest reduction in landing speed using some sort of metric, like percent of reduction, or something like that.  I would bet my lunch money that there are aircraft in-game that have more efficient plain or slotted flaps than the Fowlers on the P-38.  I could be wrong, and we wouldn't know unless we tested them, but plain or slotted flaps, given the proper application, have every chance to be as or more efficient than Fowler flaps, based on the design criteria of the flap system.  If Fowlers are too heavy, then obviously plain or slotted would be "better".  If Fowlers are too complex or too costly, then plain or slotted could be "better".  I keep emphasizing "better" because its all about the design principles and tradeoffs made in order to give the aircraft the desired landing speed characteristics.

Yes, all things being equal, Fowlers have more potential than plain or slotted, but sometimes the less-complex system is more "efficient"

And, as far as the Ta-152 goes...  That testing was done with flaps up, so no conclusion can be made regarding the higher aspect ratio and flap efficiency.  You can, however, deduce that the increased wing span helps reduce the induced drag coefficient.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 01:45:00 AM by Stoney »
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Offline moot

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2011, 02:02:27 AM »
Understood, thanks Stoney.  But.. And I'm not saying I consider one or the other as less important or interesting - from a dogfighting POV, does the same tradeoff-based picture apply, with plain/slotted flaps very possibly being just as efficient as fowlers from a bottom line agility POV?
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2011, 02:08:31 AM »
ty stoney, I wanna learn more about physics...
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2011, 02:11:04 AM »
Understood, thanks Stoney.  But.. And I'm not saying I consider one or the other as less important or interesting - from a dogfighting POV, does the same tradeoff-based picture apply, with plain/slotted flaps very possibly being just as efficient as fowlers from a bottom line agility POV?

Well, we could test and see.  The Spits are the only planes I know that have plain flaps in-game, and they only go full deflection or none, so that might be tough to compare.  But, I'd say compare an F4U (slotted) with two notches to a P-38 (fowler) with two notches and see which one gets a bigger percentage reduction in sustained turning radius.  That could be one way to compare them.  Unfortunately, we don't have two identical aircraft, with the same flapped area with one having slotted and one having fowlers.  That would be the only way to do a direct comparison I guess...
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Offline moot

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2011, 02:42:54 AM »
Spits' flaps aren't split type?

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Offline Ardy123

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #101 on: April 21, 2011, 02:51:25 AM »
yeah I think 109s have plain type...not sure.
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Offline Angus

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2011, 04:36:31 AM »
The spit flaps only had the up & down setting, and were mostly thought as an "airbrake" for landing, since the aircraft tended to float quite a bit on the ground effect.
They were "modded" for a middle setting when loaded Spit V's were flying off carrier decks. It was just a piece of wood that did the trick, and in that position they added q bit of lift at the takeoff.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #103 on: April 21, 2011, 06:57:25 AM »
ty stoney, I wanna learn more about physics...

Ardy, I'll make you a serious offer. If you want my copy of "Fundamentals of Flight" (shevell - a guy I took a couple of classes with, in fact), I will send it to you (no scheisse). My wife keeps bugging me to get rid of old text books and it's a good one for basic linear aero stuff. It's in a box in my basement and hasn't been touched since we moved to the new house last October. I bought it new in like '84 or some other Stone Age date.
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Offline drgondog

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2011, 07:08:02 AM »
I kind of tend to think that the article existed for the 190, but there was no known analysis for the other two.  So he included it.  However, based on the analysis of the other two aircraft, it was inconsistent for him to throw that little wrench in the mix.  Generally speaking, since most WWII aircraft were in the 5-6 aspect ratio range, I'd guess wing flex from bending was fairly inconsequential.  Torsion flex should be low since most used double spars as well, but I'm just spit-balling on both.
Stoney - Absent real analysis (documented) your spit balling is probably good.  My spit balling below.

I don't have a feel one way or the other why Lednicer included the report but it (Fw 190 twist design) is a real anomaly and because the Butcher Bird was notorius for sharp departures in high G turns it would be natural to see if the study yielded insight.  

The 23015 airfoil was known to have sharp stall charcteristics but I seem to recall that the Fw airfoil was a modified 23015-3? with a change to leading edge radius and have zero clue what benefit was expected with the mod.

As to torsion issues, hard to say relatively speaking.  The roll reversal on the Spit at high speed was almost certainly due to wing torsion.  With the decided question regarding aileron authority of the Fw 190 in High AoA/G I can't help but wonder regarding outer wing torsion combining with the near simulataneous reaching of CLmax on the inboard 80%.   ???
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