Are there any simple cars left?

[321BAR]

It would be very possible, but it wouldn't sell all that well.  The general consumer does not want a car that's easy to work on.  They want a car that's comfortable, reliable and is a good value.  Also as technology evolves so will the car.  Any car is easy to work on if you have the information, space, and understanding of how the vehicle works.  Now days as with anything a strong understanding of electrical circuits is very important as many of these cars are using multiplex and CAN communications.

With that being said, cars are not made purposely difficult for repair, but in order for the consumer to get roomier cabins, better fuel econs, and more features on the inside it does seem like it. Lets face it, electronic controlled cars are more efficent than the old fashioned carburated cars. 

70 BOSS Mustang
(Image removed from quote.)

1970 Boss 302 Mustang
Engine Type: V8
Displacement: 5000 cc
Horsepower: 290 bhp @ 5800 rpm
Torque: 290 lb-ft @ 4300 rpm
Performance 0-60 mph: 6.9 sec
0-100 mph: --.- sec
Quarter Mile: 14.6 sec @ 98 mph


(Image removed from quote.)
2012 Boss 302 Mustang
Engine Type: V8
Displacement: 302.1 cu in/4951 cc
Horsepower:444 hp @ 7500 rpm 
Torque: 380lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
Performance 0-60 mph: 4.0  sec
0-100 mph: 9.2 sec
Quarter Mile: 12.3 sec @ 115.8 mph
LATERAL ACCELERATION:  0.98 g (avg)
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH:  108 ft   

You have to admit, technology is nice.  The Lateral accel and braking the 70 would never be able to keep up.   

give me a 911 GT2 or 3 anyday over a Boss Stang... although a GT500 wouldnt be bad...

[CAP1]

http://www.factoryfive.com/

 at the risk of going political.......one of the biggest problems, at least here in the us, is the epa. they are closley followed by the carb.

[RTHolmes]

having stripped, cleaned, rebuilt, failed to balance, restripped, recleaned, rebuilt and rebalanced a twin set of webers ... sod that, I'll take EFI and a CPU anyday

[Skuzzy]

saggs and CAP1 have it right, but there is more information.  California allows a certain number of cars a year to be registered that do not need to pass any type of emissions testing.  These cars have to be built by the owner.  The registration is first come, first serve.

Most states allow kit cars to be registered and will not require emissions testing.  Some states register the Cobras as 1966 year model, while others have a special code in the registration which indicates no emission tests are required.

Many of the Cobra kit builders are dropping in the new 5.0 V-8 Ford sells as a crate motor, complete with engine management.  At around 412HP, it offers a nice reliable performance package, when dropped into a 2200 pound kit car.  It also gets pretty decent gas mileage when paired with a reasonable rear axle ratio (3.23:1, as an example) and a 6 speed transmission.

[moot]

IIRC Lazs builds street legal 600 HP machines for 10k$ or so.  Not that youd have to have 600 HP, but at that price it's gotta be bare bones, and should leave you 5-15k$ in custom interior comfort.

[dedalos]

ill ponder you this...

Everyone says we have to lower emmissions of our engines. We burn more fuel trying to lower the emissions than if we just left the engines alone. Semi trucks used to get relatively good mileage, now they are lucky to get 6 miles/gallon.

My school buses have some system on them to lower emissions. But you have to burn off all the crap that is left in the exhaust system every now and then. And if you dont, then the engine shuts off. It takes 45min to run the cleaning system and if you are on the road and it stops, STBY. That happened to my driver when he got his bus. Started his route in the morning and his bus just stopped moving.

So we are so concerned about lowering emissions and getting better mileage that we have complicated the entire vehicles to the point where they are worse than before.

Now thats my non-mechanic opinion, but its based off of all the conversations i have had with my two uncles who are mechanics.

Uhm, cars are not worse than before.  Just about everything is magnitudes of times better including engines, safety, millage etc.   Making a car simple so some guy can work on it is not more important than emissions.  As for emissions hurting millage why don;t you compare a decent car of today with a car of the 80s and see for yourself what gives you more horse power for less gas.  I said decent so that kind of takes Detroit out of the picture muahahahaha

[MrRiplEy[H]]

1989 Lada 2107
4 cilinders, 75 hp, 1497 ccm
max speed: 100mph
0-60mph: 16 secs
rear wheel drive, weights 850kgs, about 1900 pounds /so much fun in the winter/
Cost: around 500-700 bucks
(Image removed from quote.)
Anything newer?  i dont think so.

Even the 2107 has some electric emission control crap in the carburetor (mostly makes it stall on idle and spend more fuel). Plug off the cable and car runs better

[MrRiplEy[H]]

As a sidenote anyone complaining about the complexity of modern engines should do two things:

First strip off the plastic cover of the engine - you'll see old fashion mechanics just like it used to be.

Second get yourself a portable OBD II scanner and voila you can self diagnose and fix things again with no mystique.

[icepac]

Cars are more simple today than they were in the 80s and 90s.

The huge bundle of snakes called vacuum hoses has been replaced by one or two hoses and ports with engine management doing the heavy lifting.

The old vacuum hoses were a mechanical computer anyway so replacing it with an electronic digital computer that is reprogrammable through the data link connector makes for much easier changes to the runtime algorithm.

Before you had to change spring pressures against vacuum diaphragms, weights in the distributor, jet sizes, metering rod heights and taper....etc.

Check out a toyota corolla which gets 30mpg easy no matter how you drive and the systems are unbelievably simple.......as well as being very easy to troubleshoot.........if you have access to wiring diagrams and resistence values of actuators and sensors.   (all on the internet)

[dedalos]

Cars are more simple today than they were in the 80s and 90s.

The huge bundle of snakes called vacuum hoses has been replaced by one or two hoses and ports with engine management doing the heavy lifting.

The old vacuum hoses were a mechanical computer anyway so replacing it with an electronic digital computer that is reprogrammable through the data link connector makes for much easier changes to the runtime algorithm.

Before you had to change spring pressures against vacuum diaphragms, weights in the distributor, jet sizes, metering rod heights and taper....etc.

Check out a toyota corolla which gets 30mpg easy no matter how you drive and the systems are unbelievably simple.......as well as being very easy to troubleshoot.........if you have access to wiring diagrams and resistence values of actuators and sensors.   (all on the internet)

Yes, but don't forget that some people need DVD Re-winders because they are used to the simple times of having to re-wind a tape 

[CAP1]

It would be very possible, but it wouldn't sell all that well.  The general consumer does not want a car that's easy to work on.  They want a car that's comfortable, reliable and is a good value.  Also as technology evolves so will the car.  Any car is easy to work on if you have the information, space, and understanding of how the vehicle works.  Now days as with anything a strong understanding of electrical circuits is very important as many of these cars are using multiplex and CAN communications.

With that being said, cars are not made purposely difficult for repair, but in order for the consumer to get roomier cabins, better fuel econs, and more features on the inside it does seem like it. Lets face it, electronic controlled cars are more efficent than the old fashioned carburated cars. 

70 BOSS Mustang
(Image removed from quote.)

1970 Boss 302 Mustang
Engine Type: V8
Displacement: 5000 cc
Horsepower: 290 bhp @ 5800 rpm
Torque: 290 lb-ft @ 4300 rpm
Performance 0-60 mph: 6.9 sec
0-100 mph: --.- sec
Quarter Mile: 14.6 sec @ 98 mph


(Image removed from quote.)
2012 Boss 302 Mustang
Engine Type: V8
Displacement: 302.1 cu in/4951 cc
Horsepower:444 hp @ 7500 rpm 
Torque: 380lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
Performance 0-60 mph: 4.0  sec
0-100 mph: 9.2 sec
Quarter Mile: 12.3 sec @ 115.8 mph
LATERAL ACCELERATION:  0.98 g (avg)
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH:  108 ft   

You have to admit, technology is nice.  The Lateral accel and braking the 70 would never be able to keep up.   

the problem with the original boss 302 engines was that they were not street engines.........they couldn't make low end power. 69's had 2.25" intaKE VALVES. IN 70 they cut them to 2.19", but it was still too much.

[Megalodon]

California allows a certain number of cars a year to be registered that do not need to pass any type of emissions testing.  These cars have to be built by the owner.  The registration is first come, first serve.

They also allow any gasoline powered car 1975 year model or older. smog exempt

the 60 and early 70's cars are about as simple as it gets. There are still many of the old chevy trucks running around but the prices are going up.

[Shuffler]

I was watching the thread about the liquid driven engine cooling fan.  I'm not an engine guy or even a good automotive consumer, but I still have an opinion, and I have a question for you guys that know.

Would it be possible to build a car today that doesn't require all the computer gadgetry, where you could take care of it yourself in your garage with a decent set of hand tools?  If so, I want one.

It is possible to build but it probably won't pass emissions. Today's engines have the ability, through their computers, to adjust on the fly to humidity, pressure, and temperature changes. They even adjust based on your driving habits.

You would not be able to match the efficiency or power across the rpm range meaning more fuel consumption.

[Skuzzy]

Actually, there are a few good aftermarket fuel injection systems for the do-it-yourselfer.  The good ones allow you to match the fuel delivery to the engine based on exhaust oxygen content, barometric pressure, air flow, vacuum, engine temperature, exhaust temperature, and ambient air temperature.

You can map fuel to air ratios based on all the above parameters.  The only thing the aftermarket ones do not do is dynamic adjustments based on the octane and ethanol content of the fuel.

It is not a cheap solution, but it works really well, once you get it all dialed in.

[CAP1]

out of all of them though, the fuel tanks are sealed. no air allowed in them,.