Author Topic: Are there any simple cars left?  (Read 3006 times)

Offline Tigger29

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2011, 01:31:05 PM »
IN GENERAL cars are actually becoming easier to work on... at least the mechanical aspects of it all.  At the same time they are becoming many times harder on the electrical side of things, and yes I agree.. they are also going crazy with the entire "overengineering" aspect.

I remember several years ago working on a Trailblazer with a Check Engine light on.  It had set a code for "cooling fan overspeed" and while looking at it I saw a traditional-looking fan clutch attaching the radiator fan to the engine, and yes it was locked up.  The fan sounded like a jet engine!

Anyway, I couldn't believe the price of a replacement.  I found one aftermarket brand that was making them at the time and while about 40% cheaper than what GM wanted for one I let the customer make up his mind which one to have me install.  The prices were (parts and labor) either $1000 or $750.  He chose the $750 option.

Keep in mind, this is for a FAN CLUTCH!

The replacement was relatively simple, even though the fan shroud was a bit of a PITA, but I've dealt with much worse over the years.  After I got it out while looking at the parts I realized why the price was so high.  This was not a normal fan clutch.. this was an electro-viscous design that used an electric charge to change the viscosity of the fluid, thus changing the fan speed.  Also one of the fan blades had a small magnet installed, and there was a sensor on the fan shroud itself to determine how fast the fan was spinning.  On one hand I was thinking this was pretty smart and ingenious but then it occurred to me... why go through all of this hassle using such an expensive design when they could have just simply installed an electric fan???

And I see this sort of thing all of the time.  Power windows for example no longer have simple wiring going from one switch to another and then to the motor... oh no.. there is a computer module in EACH DOOR that controls the window motor.  When you press DOWN the switch tells the module you want the window to go down.  The driver's module communicates with the passenger module (using protocols not much different than computer networks) so if you want the passenger window down, the drivers switch tells the drivers module you want the passenger window down and the drivers module tells the passenger module and the passenger module lowers the window.

Also cars have front and rear lighting modules, vans have sliding door (and power liftgate) modules, climate control modules... security modules... power seat modules.. restraints modules... the list goes on and on and while some of it I completely agree with, much more of it makes little sense at all.  Most of it is there to accommodate "luxury" systems such as keyless entry, automatic headlights, GPS, automatic doors.. etc.  and people being the SHEEPLE they are have falling victim to the huge advertising campaigns over the last decade or so and actually feel a need for a lot of this stuff.  They've become addicted to it and can't imagine a life without it.

Two quick stories:

1> Older woman (looked to be in her 70's) came into a Ford dealer I used to work at just before closing with two small children in a Toyota Sienna, complaining that the DVD player quit working.  As a courtesy I took a quick look and noticed the unit was turning on, but there was no picture and no sound.  I explained to her that since it was a Toyota and we were a Ford dealer that there wasn't anything I could do being we didn't have any diagnostic information or wiring diagrams or anything for it.  Then she got irate and demanded I start checking fuses and I told her.. no it has power so it isn't a fuse problem, and that the problem is probably in the unit itself and she'll need to visit Toyota.  She then get extremely angry and started cussing me out and yelling (in front of the kids) and said "You have no <censored> idea what it is like to travel with two children with a broken <censored> DVD player!"  I told her to have a nice day and simple turned around and walked away.

2> A young man (early 20's) came into my shop for an oil change with a late-model Chevy and also asked me to program it to automatically unlock the doors when it is put in PARK.  It was set up to automatically lock the doors when driving but there was no way to set it to automatically unlock them once the vehicle was parked.  I told him I could disable the auto-lock feature altogether but that's it.  He then started getting angry because he could set his Ford up to do that, and then went on throw a huge fit in front of my other customers about how he'll never buy another GM product again because it is ABSURD for people to expect him to have to press the unlock button to get out of the vehicle!!!  After that I simply pulled his car out, went inside and in front of my customers told him I didn't want his business and to take the car elsewhere for his oil change.

I have many other similar stories, but these two were the first to come to mind.

The sad truth here is that automakers don't build 'simple' cars anymore because people don't WANT simple cars anymore.  They've been conditioned to believe that without Airbags, they'll die.. and that without GPS they'll get lost.. without ABS they'll crash.. and without traction control they'll get stuck in the rain...  and without an automatic parallel parking system they won't be able to park on the street!  It's pretty sad really and automakers have done a really good job creating a demand for these luxury options.. so much that the average price of cars has increased so much that we think $20k for a new car is now a pretty good deal!

On the up-side... I have seen it become a lot easier to actually work on the mechanical systems of cars.  Tune-ups for the most part are easier requiring only the replacement of spark plugs and an occasional coil or two (except some V6 and V8 engines may require you to remove the upper intake to access the rear bank of plugs).  Belts and hoses rarely require replacement anymore and suspension/brakes parts are much easier to replace.  Exhaust almost never fails these days.. ever since they switched to low grade stainless in the 90's.

As far as engine management goes.. that has improved dramatically over the years.  I don't feel that computers are our enemies as far as that is concerned.  You can invest in a $200 scanner and diagnose about 90% of driveability issues yourself... it's those 10% that you can't that can get you into trouble!

If you want a simple, cheap car check out the Tata Nano for about $3000 brand new http://youtu.be/3sZitve3SUw but I doubt it would meet US safety and emissions regulations.  If they were smart, someone should come up with something under $8000 here that gets 50+ MPG in a true no-frills car.  I was hoping the new Fiesta would fit that bill, but apparently not.  It blows my mind that the little "smart car" still only gets 36MPG combined.

In the mean time, I'll be tooling around in my $500 Escort and my $800 Windstar...

Offline dedalos

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2011, 01:44:38 PM »
Those the same doors that unlock as soon as you pull the handle to open?  :confused:  And what does a DVD player have to do wit complicated cars?  Nice stories though  :aok
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2011, 02:07:49 PM »
Actually, there are a few good aftermarket fuel injection systems for the do-it-yourselfer.  The good ones allow you to match the fuel delivery to the engine based on exhaust oxygen content, barometric pressure, air flow, vacuum, engine temperature, exhaust temperature, and ambient air temperature.

You can map fuel to air ratios based on all the above parameters.  The only thing the aftermarket ones do not do is dynamic adjustments based on the octane and ethanol content of the fuel.

It is not a cheap solution, but it works really well, once you get it all dialed in.

Without a computer to monitor all those variables, you can only find a happy medium that will change in efficiency as weather and conditions change.
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Offline saggs

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2011, 02:24:34 PM »

LATERAL ACCELERATION:  0.98 g (avg)
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH:  108 ft   


You have to admit, technology is nice.  The Lateral accel and braking the 70 would never be able to keep up.   

I'm shocked that that Mustang, (according to specs you posted) can hold nearly 1G through the corners.   :aok

That is VERY impressive for a car model that is typically not know for it's cornering.  Still I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to get a little frisky on the skinny pedal and go around a corner sideways, or backwards.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2011, 02:36:15 PM »
I'm shocked that that Mustang, (according to specs you posted) can hold nearly 1G through the corners.   :aok

That is VERY impressive for a car model that is typically not know for it's cornering.  Still I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to get a little frisky on the skinny pedal and go around a corner sideways, or backwards.

just an FYI......THAT mustang owns the bmw m3 on the road courses. the standard gt gives the beemer a run for its money.  :aok
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 03:16:28 PM »
Without a computer to monitor all those variables, you can only find a happy medium that will change in efficiency as weather and conditions change.

Those systems do come with a computer.  There are several on the market available (FAST is very popular, but not the most sophisticated).  They monitor and change the variables in real-time.  Most of the computer allow you to specify ranges for any change to be made.

I am not talking about a mechanical fuel injection system.  These aftermarket systems are full blown computer driven systems, made for high performance engines.  Even Ford sells an aftermarket system for the high performance crate engine they just released.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2011, 03:20:38 PM »
Those systems do come with a computer.  There are several on the market available (FAST is very popular, but not the most sophisticated).  They monitor and change the variables in real-time.  Most of the computer allow you to specify ranges for any change to be made.

I am not talking about a mechanical fuel injection system.  These aftermarket systems are full blown computer driven systems, made for high performance engines.  Even Ford sells an aftermarket system for the high performance crate engine they just released.

It was my understanding that the OP wanted to get away from complicated cars. Which I took as away from computers and such. Take the computer away and it pretty much is a simple machine again. Except for that bolt behind that whatchamacallit under the thingamajig. :D
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2011, 03:20:50 PM »
Those systems do come with a computer.  There are several on the market available (FAST is very popular, but not the most sophisticated).  They monitor and change the variables in real-time.  Most of the computer allow you to specify ranges for any change to be made.

I am not talking about a mechanical fuel injection system.  These aftermarket systems are full blown computer driven systems, made for high performance engines.  Even Ford sells an aftermarket system for the high performance crate engine they just released.

 most of the afertmarket systems i've seen are pretty dam good, and complete.

 now, here's something i bet most here don't know......the ford EEC4 control system(which was years ahead of the same era gm control systems in my opinion) is a stand alone system.
 it is actually VERY easy to wire that system into pretty much any old ford v-8.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2011, 03:22:04 PM »
most of the afertmarket systems i've seen are pretty dam good, and complete.

 now, here's something i bet most here don't know......the ford EEC4 control system(which was years ahead of the same era gm control systems in my opinion) is a stand alone system.
 it is actually VERY easy to wire that system into pretty much any old ford v-8.

Which is fine except you still just have a ford. :P
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2011, 03:26:01 PM »
Which is fine except you still just have a ford. :P

but it's a COOL ford.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2011, 03:31:41 PM »
It was my understanding that the OP wanted to get away from complicated cars. Which I took as away from computers and such. Take the computer away and it pretty much is a simple machine again. Except for that bolt behind that whatchamacallit under the thingamajig. :D

Using electronics to replace the analog counterparts makes the system simpler, more reliable, and more efficient.  After market systems can be fixed in your garage.  The computers expose all the operations, and allow you to be really creative in tuning the system to match, not just the engine, but your driving style as well.

Nice thing about them is once they are all setup, you never have to touch them again.  You cannot say that about a carburetor.  Here is something else most folks forget about.  The Ethanol fuel we have to live with will eat away at a carburetors viton needles.  Even some of the gaskets are not safe to use for long as they will dissolve.

And if the carb has an aluminum body, you can expect the aluminum oxides to clog up the works over time, requiring a new carb to fix it.  Ethanol will eat up aluminum, over time.
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Offline Hornet33

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2011, 03:32:08 PM »
Go find yourself a late 70's early 80's Chevy, GMC, Ford, or Dodge truck with a straight frame. Nothing else matters more than that. The body can be in decent shape, those trucks are easy to do body work on. Anyway you should be able to find one that's not running for several hundred bucks. Pull the motor and transmission and buy a Crate motor with a carb instead of fuel injection. Small V8 like the 302 or 305, maybe a straight or slant 6, bolt a new transmission to it and drop the works into the truck.

For around $8000 you can buy and restore an old truck like that. It will be rock solid, simple to work on yourself, you don't have to screw with emissions, and you have a cool ride when your done that will lst for years. It's cheaper than buying a new car that will only depreciate after driving off the lot, your "old" truck fully restored will increase in value as long as you take care of it.

My old neighbor does this all the time. Buys old trucks dirt cheap, restores them himself over 5-6 months and sells them for a nice proffit but he still dirves a 74 Ford F-250 crew cab 4X4 that he's owned for 15 years as his daily driver.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2011, 03:43:33 PM »
Using electronics to replace the analog counterparts makes the system simpler, more reliable, and more efficient.  After market systems can be fixed in your garage.  The computers expose all the operations, and allow you to be really creative in tuning the system to match, not just the engine, but your driving style as well.

Nice thing about them is once they are all setup, you never have to touch them again.  You cannot say that about a carburetor.  Here is something else most folks forget about.  The Ethanol fuel we have to live with will eat away at a carburetors viton needles.  Even some of the gaskets are not safe to use for long as they will dissolve.

And if the carb has an aluminum body, you can expect the aluminum oxides to clog up the works over time, requiring a new carb to fix it.  Ethanol will eat up aluminum, over time.

Not saying I don't agree. Just that the OP wants simple.... from what I get from his post, getting away from computers, and all the peripheral add-ons for emissions. Just an engine with a coolant system. The epitome of simplicity.

I may have read more into it than what he actually meant. That would upset me as I have a perfect record on understanding what I read on these boards up to this point. :P
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2011, 03:44:30 PM »
Go find yourself a late 70's early 80's Chevy, GMC, Ford, or Dodge truck with a straight frame. Nothing else matters more than that. The body can be in decent shape, those trucks are easy to do body work on. Anyway you should be able to find one that's not running for several hundred bucks. Pull the motor and transmission and buy a Crate motor with a carb instead of fuel injection. Small V8 like the 302 or 305, maybe a straight or slant 6, bolt a new transmission to it and drop the works into the truck.

For around $8000 you can buy and restore an old truck like that. It will be rock solid, simple to work on yourself, you don't have to screw with emissions, and you have a cool ride when your done that will lst for years. It's cheaper than buying a new car that will only depreciate after driving off the lot, your "old" truck fully restored will increase in value as long as you take care of it.

My old neighbor does this all the time. Buys old trucks dirt cheap, restores them himself over 5-6 months and sells them for a nice proffit but he still dirves a 74 Ford F-250 crew cab 4X4 that he's owned for 15 years as his daily driver.

And don't forget the big tars  :D
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline kamori

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Re: Are there any simple cars left?
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2011, 03:50:51 PM »
Those systems do come with a computer.  There are several on the market available (FAST is very popular, but not the most sophisticated).  They monitor and change the variables in real-time.  Most of the computer allow you to specify ranges for any change to be made.

I am not talking about a mechanical fuel injection system.  These aftermarket systems are full blown computer driven systems, made for high performance engines.  Even Ford sells an aftermarket system for the high performance crate engine they just released.

Check out this Tuning setup. http://www.dynamicefi.com/   Ive been running it on mt 383 stroker and boy you could get a GREAT TUNE . Mines in a 1988 Suburban. 22 MPG Highway ans 15 - 16 City. 350 HP . Ive surprised many Newer trucks with the performance.


« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 04:45:03 PM by kamori »