Help with air to air combat

[Donpost]

Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:

1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.

2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.


Er, that's it for now I guess. But any tips for improving would be gratefully received. 

[FLS]

You might want an aircraft with better turn performance while you are learning the basics.

You'll get more dogfighting practice in the duelling arena or training arena if you can find somebody there to fight 1v1.

Read up on ACM to understand the theory of dogfighting.

Film your fights to help you analyze what you did that helped you and what didn't work.

[Oldman731]

Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:

1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.

2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.

Check this thread, and others like it:  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,307387.0.html
Go into the training arena, find a trainer to work with.

As for your #2, you're timing and possibly your energy are probably a bit off.   If the enemy is already above you, and climbs on the merge, you aren't likely to match his climb  Do something else - turn, dive - while you keep him in sight and work him down.  If instead you approach each other approximately co-alt, put your plane in a slight dive, pass under him and pull up promptly after.

Anyway, good to see someone trying to improve his skills, if you can't find a trainer stop into AvA some night, people there are happy to work with you.  FLS makes a good point:  the P-38, along with the Corsair, the 109s and a few others, are difficult planes for experienced people to fly well.  You might want to pick some other ride while you're learning.

- oldman

[fwav8or]

So then, if I may ask, what are some of the recommended starting aircraft for dog fighting?

[Lusche]

So then, if I may ask, what are some of the recommended starting aircraft for dog fighting?

Spitfires are always good planes to start with. They are easy to handle, allowing you to concentrate on learning combat & ACM basics without learning the various quirks & vices of your ride first. For the LW arena, I'd suggest Spit IX, VIII or XVI. They all have moderate top speed, but good to very good acceleration and climb rate, good maneuverability and views and adequate firepower.
Spit I and V have too much limitations for a new player, XIV is a perk plane anyway.

[Oldman731]

Spitfires are always good planes to start with. They are easy to handle, allowing you to concentrate on learning combat & ACM basics without learning the various quirks & vices of your ride first. For the LW arena, I'd suggest Spit IX, VIII or XVI. They all have moderate top speed, but good to very good acceleration and climb rate, good maneuverability and views and adequate firepower.
Spit I and V have too much limitations for a new player, XIV is a perk plane anyway.

These Spits are the traditional beginner planes.  Also easy to fly while you work on tactics:  A6M5, Brewster, Hurri IIC, FM2 (all slow, but don't worry about that just now).  N1K2J, La7 are a bit faster and still easy to fly.

- oldman

[morfiend]

 Don,

 One of the best thing you can do is what we were doing on Monday,flying around chasing each other and trying to get an advantage.

  Your correct in the fact of flying in the Main arenas,while fun,is a slow way to learn and improve.Seat time,reading and Dueling will be the best way to improve.  Read Oldman's suggestion of planes to use and pick 1 you like and use it until you have a good understanding of flight combat,then if you wish you can switch over to the 38.  That would be a good time to setup some time with 1 of the trainers who flies the 38 regularly,Delirium and Soulyss both come to mind.


  Above all have fun,you'll improve with time!




       

[PuppetZ]

You might be interested in this : http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf.

It's a write-up on ACM and general online air combat by Johan Kylander I found on my squad BBS. It's a little long but it made for a very interesting read. I found it a very complete guide and helped me figure out my options. At least on paper....

[Soulyss]

Happy to spend some time in the TA with you, if you're interested shoot me a PM here and we can set aside some time.

Far be it from me to tell someone what to fly, ultimately you gotta fly whatever you find interesting and fun.  However the 38 isn't the most beginner friendly plane in the stable from a combat point of view (ironically because of zero net torque it's also one of the easiest to pick up and fly).  It can do a lot of things well but many of the more common planes that you will run into in the MA will be able to rely on one or two things and will be able to do it better than the 38.  What this means is you have to change tactics a lot and the one area where the 38 truly stands out can be hard for a newer player to exploit, ie it's phenomenal low speed handling, stability, vertical performance, and nose control.

I think some of the other planes mentioned above are better beginner planes, the Spits (VIII, IX, XVI), N1K, the Lavochkin family (LA-5, LA-7).  The P-51's and 190 series (particularly the 190D) can also be a decent choice from a survivability stand point but will require very conservative tactics at first.  Their high speed helps keeps you out of trouble but leave new players with few choices once that speed bleeds off.

However if you want to give the 38 a go I'm happy to try and help out in any way I can.

[Owlblink]

Hey Donpost Im glad you found your way to the BBS, there's a LOT of great information barried in here, enough to fill a great book. There are also a lot of confusing and sometimes contradicting (seemingly, but that toonwill make sense later in your pilot career) information, however if you take the time to read some air combat books and flight theory you will eventually develop the key in understanding the different arguments posted here.
1) For getting the most battle experience, check out the Dualing Arena. You will die a lot, but you can learn a LOT too! But keep reading on things like energy management and try and always wing up with someone, the furball lake in the DA can also produce bad flying habbits. As long as you learn to develop your SA and learn to time your moves, you will improve.
2)use the split S as a ditching effort to get away. It can sometimes help you, but it usually will not help you out in an angles or energy fight. What will help you most is to learn high and low Yo-Yo like moves or Siccors for ACM. The name of the game is to get the pilot who has more Energy (alt {seperation} and speed, to keep it sympol for now) to burn his energy up while you conserve and store as much as you can. Learning WHEN to pull a flat turn or any other ACM is what makes all this work. That takes time, studying, and practice
Dont get too frustrated and NEVER fly when you are angry or in a bad mind set. Air combat IS a form of martial arts and psychology plays a big roll. You want to take advantage of the enemies mind state and learn to defend against him trying to do the same with yours
If you see me, Owlblink, on in the DA, give me a shout out ( .p Owlblink). Im far from the best pilot, but its good to know people.
 
PS a lot of pilots tend to have big egos, dont take it personal if you ever offend someone in game and they call you out, that is also part of the psychological game. be humble and avoid the Trolls

[Donpost]

Wow, lots of useful replies - good stuff 

Morfiend - After our meeting in the TA the other day I did as you suggested and spent some time setting up my joystick. It has helped a lot; now I just need to practice.

I'm the kind of person who likes a bit of structure and planning, so this is what I think I'm gonna do:

1) Switch to the SPIT! I'm British so I should really be flying that anyway 

2) Practice gunnery on the offline drones. Is there any way to make the drones behave a bit more erratically? It's one thing to shoot a plane flying in a lazy circle around an airfield, another thing entirely to shoot something that is trying to maneouvore out of your way!

3) Practice the common ACMs in and empty arena so I can pull them off effectively and learn the effect on alitude, direction, and airspeed.

4) Review recordings of my dogfights. I heard you can also view them from the POV of the enemy, is that true? If so it'd be really handy in seeing where I went wrong.

5) Get with a trainer! Although really I feel like I should get some basic skills that can be obtained through practice obtained first. Wax on, wax off type stuff  I am based in the UK, are there many trainers from this timezone? What's the best way to organise some scheduled (one-to-one?) training?

Thanks,

donpost

[FLS]

When you practice with the drones don't just tail chase, attack them from every angle. Fly formation with a drone and see how close you can hold your position. Practice your basic fighter maneuvers with a runway as your reference point then do them with a drone as your reference point. Fly continuous barrel rolls around a drone while keeping it in sight. Be creative. Drones are useful tools.

[Donpost]

Just had a blast at some targets offline and I've found out two things:

a) It's best to mount your stick on something rather than just hold it in you lap like I was doing.

b) Turning the tracers off helps me 

I was actually trying to come at the drones from side on as well as behind, but my aim is still not good enough for that. And I STILL lose the enemy plane below my nose when shooting. I have my hat-forward bound to a view that looks over the left-top of the engine which is handy for following the enemy aircraft but not much help when shooting at it.

[Soulyss]

Just had a blast at some targets offline and I've found out two things:

a) It's best to mount your stick on something rather than just hold it in you lap like I was doing.

b) Turning the tracers off helps me 

I was actually trying to come at the drones from side on as well as behind, but my aim is still not good enough for that. And I STILL lose the enemy plane below my nose when shooting. I have my hat-forward bound to a view that looks over the left-top of the engine which is handy for following the enemy aircraft but not much help when shooting at it.

It's not uncommon for hit % to go up a bit with tracers off.  With the tracers on you tend to just watch the tracers and try to walk them into the target, with tracers off you pay more attention to the gunsight itself and where the pipper is in relation to target.  Sometimes there's a slump when you first turn them off but once you start to require the sight picture it's not uncommon to see a little bump in accuracy.

[Ardy123]

Donpost,
Get some basic knowledge from the trainers then go to the DA and ask people to duel you. In the duels, you will probably loose but don't worry, every time you loose you learn and try and execute some of the moves the trainers taught you.

Its really all about repetition, the more you practice the better you get, and don't get frustrated if it seems like your not getting better, you are. Also, remember, many people have been playing the game for years so give it at least a year to get up to par.

If you choose to go to the dueling arena, don't go to the lake, you will not get much out of it.