Author Topic: Tracers  (Read 6221 times)

Offline grizz441

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #120 on: May 10, 2011, 07:04:59 PM »

Something like this?


(Image removed from quote.)

I was thinking more of on the y axis you have cumulative percentage going up to 100%, x you have players.  If you calculated the std dev and mean of the data and plotted Z norms on the Y axis you would have a beauty:)
U could plot every player data point on one graph actually and see what kind of distribution it is, i.e. normal, lognormal, extreme, etc.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2011, 03:57:00 AM »
U could plot every player data point on one graph actually


There is a single data point for every player on that second graph. It's an X-Y graph, with the players sorted by hit% on the X axis.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2011, 06:50:30 AM »
No, thats FACT. You and many others may have become desensitized to it and learned to use it, but it is still a distraction.

It is fact that the more stimulus, the more the human brain and eye has to focus on the worse the results of the overall task. It has been scientifically proven beyond all doubt.

I didn't want to skip past this, but had to run to work...

If it's being used, it qualifies as a tool, not a distraction.  The fact that you haven't learned to use it doesn't change the fact that it's a tool.  And it's a tool that you haven't replaced with a different tool in the case of tracers/no tracers.

Stimulus- you're picking the "juicy" parts of the study apart, and distorting the truth by leaving leaving out other parts of the study that don't support your theory.  It's a misleading representation of the facts.  In your sentence above, it could be summarized that more stimulus is always bad, which is far from the truth... 

Stimulus is a requirement for learning.  If you lived in a stimulus free environment you'd learn nothing (and you wouldn't need to).  So stimulus isn't bad, and could be even argued as being a good "force".  At the very least, we'd have to classify it as "neutral" overall.

What you mean (if I may be so bold) is closer to "too much stimulus is bad".  "Too much" doesn't equate to "the more", though.  We could actually have "more" stimulus, but still have "too little" to learn the task, right?

I'll let you answer that though.  No point in progressing until we agree on the basics.

So when firing, you have to watch the pipper, the target, and the tracers. Compared to just the target and the pipper. And that doesnt even consider all of the other stimulus the pilot has to deal with...

I watch the target, and ignore the pipper and tracers until/unless I find them useful/necessary.  Most of the time, the sight is not pointing where my rounds will hit anyway.  I've learned that it's not a very good reference (when it comes to my shooting).   It's nowhere near as useful as a sight on a rifle or pistol, for example.

And tell me this, how well are you really judging where those tracers are going when there are dozens of them arcing in your view? So not only do you see the bullets on the upward leg of the arc, but you are seeing tracers that preceded those on the downward arc further out, PLUS the crisscrossing on wing mounted guns. It all adds up to excessive stimulus. It is a distraction and unnecessary.

The easy (and obvious) answer is "pretty dang good".  I've learned to interpret them, and ignore the information I don't need.  Truthfully, I'm not even aware of them most of the time.  I see them peripherally, but only pay attention to them for brief snippets of time when I want to know where my misses are going.  They're a tool that I want instant access to, even though I seldom pay much attention to them.  For example, I couldn't even tell you what color they are off-hand.

I could probably blame them for my very good aerial gunnery, but that would be jumping to conclusions.  I'd need to look at the other causes as well, in order to identify the "real" cause (s).  Have I practiced more?  Concentrated more?  Chosen easier targets?  Wasted less rounds on targets that would lower my hit%?  Has my accuracy really improved due to my tracers, or are they really just a small factor overall?

They definitely don't qualify as a "distraction" in my world, though.  They don't effect me negatively (if they do, it's very minor), but they do effect me positively.  They even effect me positively when I miss, because they tell me where I missed.

If I get time, I'll even throw together some films to show you what I mean.

****Speaking of which, I'd really like to see some film clips of some of you fighting without tracers.  Anyone willing to post some?  Not just the "final shot", but some that are representative of the "norm", start of fight to finish.


MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2011, 06:54:52 AM »
Sight picture and repetition.

I used to shoot with and old marine who talked me into buying an M1A1 and a garand. All he would talk about was sight picture. Post and Pumpkin. Look through the rear peep. Line up the front post with the black target center on top in the center of the peep. Post and pumpkin. Burn it into my brain. 6 months later of shooting several hundred rounds a weekend with him I could off hand and put 5 in the black at 200 everytime.

Aces High is the same way. I cannot account for anyones flying skill. There are trainers and many hot aces in the DA. But, your gunnery is simple. Sight picture. First find a gunsight that works for you. If you want to be technicaly correct here is a real world sighting spec that works in the game because Hitech has programed down to that level of granularity.

Make a gunsight for your american, british, japanese and russian planes that has an outer ring 120mil, inner 60mil and a cross for a dot that is 25mil across. In your aircraft move your FOV forward until the 120mil ring fits the reflector plate or is even smaller. With the german, italian, Ki61/84 make a 100mil ring with a cross. Move your FOV forward to make the 100mil ring fit. With the Revi the 100mil ring showed roughly as 2/3 the width of the glass. Japanese just fit the glass.

Many countries pre WW2 copied german export gunsights so their graticule was often to german standards. 100mil ring. Japanese used both 100mil and 120mil. Army, Navy kind of thing.

Offline chase cons around for 30 minutes at a time. Set your ammo to 10x in the arena setup so you can spray. Start all shooting at 400 yards and at "full zoom". Eventualy you will notice for most 400 yard lead shots you place the edge of the 60mil ring on the fuslage of the con elevated up from center about halfway down the vertical line of the cross. With the cricle and cross 100mil ring you hold the con's fuslage 2/3 off center inside of the 100mil ring with elevation. Helps to have the standard Reflexvisier stadia marks. Because of repitition you will start anticipating your lead and elevation due to perviously shooting at the same lead and elevation so many times before. Becomes second nature after awhile and you can focus on the pilot stuff....Tracers....optional or as a minor lead correction indicator.

The 100mph ring talked about by the british is 120mil with the horz bar spaced at 60mil. PBP1 120/60 with cross. American rings with the N-2 and N-3 series started out 30mil and migrated upwards through the war. N9, 120/60 move your FOV to fit it in the 51B and 47D-11/25. The K14 had a minimum setting of 60mil and a maximum of 120 which all fit on the K14 glass. Raise yourself up and move forward in the P51D and you will see the projector lenses. That is the size the 120mil ring should show on the glass. I found a reference to the Navy's Mk8 that it was actualy 200mil with a 100 then 50 ring while in some aircraft it was resized. Most times we only see the 100 and 50 rings in pictures. The Reflexvisier ring in all models is 50mm on the glass plate or 100mil with the stadia marks at about 16mil. Italian SanGior, 100/50 rings. Revi style cross/ring in 205 with MG151/20.

Why am I going here? Hitech has modeled the illusion of speed and distance accuratly. But, our default FOV is not. It's a comprimise to give us a semblance of periferal vision. I used to make the mistake of creating gunsights to fit the ring to the glass plate to look like each countries manuals. The gunsights though in their original specifications on zoom work as the manuals say they should. Especialy if you know the correct ring diameters the historic gunsights used.

60mil = 30ft wingspan at 200 yards. 400 yard deflection hold off 20-30 degrees.
120mil = distance at 200 yards aircraft travels left to right at 100 mph in .254 second.
120mil = 30ft wingspan inside of 200 yards only a blindman misses.

16mil stadia marks = deflection marks to calculate degrees of radi to shoot lead.
100mil = 10m wingspan at 100m.
100mil = 30m wingspan at 300m.

Sight picture and repitition.

This is the sight I've always done best with.



But again, I really don't pay much attention to the sight.  Most of my shooting is in the D200 - D400 range (so 100-500yds actual), although I'll open on bombers out to D600 occasionally (D200 - D400 is my norm there, too).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:01:46 AM by mtnman »
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Offline DeadStik

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2011, 08:44:22 AM »
I do agree with the statement that given an aircraft which:

  • Has 6+ guns.
  • Guns where convergence is severe (wing guns).
  • Is firing at D500+ (give or take)

... will result in a lot of tracers, which in my opinion can most definitely be much more than needed to track shots.

So now my question becomes: What if for aircraft of this sort you could decide if only two of those guns (probably the outboard most guns) would have tracers loaded but the rest without? A good example would be for the Spit-1 and P47 models. Would this be at all realistic? Did pilots opt for this in reality? Did pilots of those aircraft even use tracers? I would think in reality having 8 streams of tracers would be nearly blinding especially at dusk and dawn (I'm aware that at night tracers were never loaded). Does anybody have any data on this? Thanks!
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Offline Noir

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2011, 09:20:09 AM »
I do agree with the statement that given an aircraft which:

  • Has 6+ guns.
  • Guns where convergence is severe (wing guns).
  • Is firing at D500+ (give or take)

... will result in a lot of tracers, which in my opinion can most definitely be much more than needed to track shots.

So now my question becomes: What if for aircraft of this sort you could decide if only two of those guns (probably the outboard most guns) would have tracers loaded but the rest without? A good example would be for the Spit-1 and P47 models. Would this be at all realistic? Did pilots opt for this in reality? Did pilots of those aircraft even use tracers? I would think in reality having 8 streams of tracers would be nearly blinding especially at dusk and dawn (I'm aware that at night tracers were never loaded). Does anybody have any data on this? Thanks!

at some point there was a rumour that we would be able to make our own ammo belts. That would be cool.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2011, 09:43:51 AM »
Tool to some... distraction to others.

Used correctly means walking them on as opposed to using the sight picture.

Would be interesting to see how many that use tracers actually pay much attention to their sight before or during firing.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2011, 10:09:41 AM »
Would be interesting to see how many that use tracers actually pay much attention to their sight before or during firing.

Hmmm...

I'm a "tracer on" (98% of my sorties that is) player. My shooting process is as following: Like Mtnman, I use the simple dot gunsight. No additional reticles, lines or dots to confuse me. I use "the force", meaning I do shoot using my inner sight picture. If I miss my target, I use the tracers as feedback as to by how much and in which direction I did miss, so I can adjust my inner sight picture next time without guessing too much what went wrong. Only occasionally I am really "walking my fire" towards my target, mostly when flying US planes and attacking bombers from long range (but usually not that much adjustment necessary ;) ).  

By the way, it's similar in tanks. I don't use the fancy German sight as supposed, I have it set to a fixed range and that's it, using the big triangle just like the "dot" gunsight in a fighter.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2011, 12:08:04 PM »

Would be interesting to see how many that use tracers actually pay much attention to their sight before or during firing.

I do.

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Offline grizz441

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2011, 12:14:13 PM »

There is a single data point for every player on that second graph. It's an X-Y graph, with the players sorted by hit% on the X axis.

Can you msg me the source data for those graphs?  I'll post what I am not explaining very well.

Offline Bear76

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2011, 12:21:59 PM »
...and that is simply because my stats in this game have exactly zero influence on my life.

Your BBS stats, now that's another matter  ;)

Offline Lusche

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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2011, 03:23:08 PM »
This is the sight I've always done best with.

(Image removed from quote.)

But again, I really don't pay much attention to the sight.  Most of my shooting is in the D200 - D400 range (so 100-500yds actual), although I'll open on bombers out to D600 occasionally (D200 - D400 is my norm there, too).

You really only have half of the Dot 'O Death sight.

Go here and check it out ... http://www.dogfightersclub.org/gunsights/dot_o_death.htm
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Offline bustr

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Re: Tracers
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2011, 05:16:01 PM »
This is the sight I've always done best with.

(Image removed from quote.)

But again, I really don't pay much attention to the sight.  Most of my shooting is in the D200 - D400 range (so 100-500yds actual), although I'll open on bombers out to D600 occasionally (D200 - D400 is my norm there, too).

mtnman,

Thats a dot in the center of a 30mil circle(fuzzy BIG dougnut). At the begining of WW2 30mil ring and dot was the standard in AAF N-2/N-3 gunsights used by the U.S. and Britian. Just before Midway the Navy got rid of the sighting tube on in their Wildcats for N-3B and modified it to 35mil to induce some lead shot ability while waiting for the Barr&Stroud MKII/Mk8 to become available. June of 43 a maintenance order was issued for the AAF to replace the 30mil ring with a 70mil ring in the N-2/N-3 sights.

15mil/30pixel is about the average your graticule centerline stays above the highest point of travel along 400 yards for your rounds in the game except nearing and exiting the convergence point. About 6 months ago I took the spit9, K4, P51D, La7, Yak9T and 109G2 and graphed round impacts against the offline target every 50 yards out to 650 for the MK108/Ns-37 and 1000 for everything else. Convergence test sets at 150, 250 and 400.(man it was BORING) I created a 5mil grid target 150mil in diameter and recorded against the center line of the target the following.

GCL - above/below tcl<---on average your graticule CL is 80cm above engine CL at the cockpit.
MG - above/below tcl
C/MK - above/below tcl
Dispersion - (x,y) feild in mil

If you set (.target 10), F3 and look from the side you will see the airplane CL is tied to the target CL.

Note: At this time I beleive setting your engine mounted cannon to 250-650 is about the same as locking them into the engine CL at 0-degree. Nose bounce and coad induced dispersion eliminates any fractions of a degree in elevation. Sorry Mr. Hitech I had to beat myself over the head for awhile to accept you are correct. :)

In AH your GCL (graticule center line) is tilted down and out for you automaticly as you pull your convergence points out to 650 in the hanger following your primary gun. You can graph this for your selves via the method outlined above. It is pulled down to intersect the line of your primary gun at the convergence point you set. But, your rounds will then travel at or just below that point for another 50-100 yards and stay below the GCL. On average 400 yards is the best distance that your rounds consistantly average staying within 15mil/30pixel of the bottom of your GCL except at convergence point.

For the most part the only thing convergence settings do is concentrate your bullet streams at a setpoint@distance. Based on my testing your aim point is the same at all effective distances, just a tad above the con because of the GCL line of sight being auto angled down. But, TIMING for bullet travel and/or angle of lead is what gunnery becomes about after you put in the TIME learning your sight picture. We don't shoot lazers in this game yet......

Everyone is different, so this being a game and not the US Militairy, we all have whatever works for our eyes as a graticule in our gunsights. But, the fact of using it over an extended period of time means you have learned your "Sight Picture" by repitition. Now, for the most part you know where ahead of your con to place the center of it to send your bullet streams to let the con fly through them. (Sight Picture and Repitition......)

Angles, Realative Speeds, Timing, Elevation, Holdover, Bullet Time to Target and Sight Picture.

Mntman, I thought the tracers were hot pink, or is it lavender....hmmmm....I know!!! It looks like a stream of tiny Hot Pink winged sheep with rockets stuck in their tiney kesters...piu, sssss, baaa, piu, sssssss, baaaaaa...boooom.......yeah.<---AH Cartoon Material..hehheheee
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