P-51B

[Lusche]

IOW, the P-51 is outfought by the top-of-the line perk-free fighters of every air force represented in AHII. To win a fight with conservatively 75% of the fighters in this game, the P-51 needs an edge in pilot skill or energy, preferably both.

The question is: How much of it is a result of the complete different combat environment and the relative lack of wing tactics in the MA? Almost all combats on AH are more or less a chaotic, low altitude brawl by undisciplined pilots. This favors different traits in planes than for example the real ETO air combat. Slow but very maneuverable fighters like the Hurri, the B-239 or the Zero are performing well MA because of that.

[R 105]

The following information is from North American Aviation records and not Wikipedia. All information is with full internal fuel loads only.

Wing Span        37.5  ft
length              32    ft
Ht.                  13.4  ft
Wing Area         340 Sq ft
Engine/Marlin     V.1.790 hp
Max Speed        443 mph
Clime rate         3.320 ft. per minute. Clime to 20.00 ft 7.5 minutes
Ceiling              41.900 ft
Range              1.140 miles of max cruise at 10.000 ft
weight             11.100 lbs
Guns               6-50 cal Browning machine guns

The last P-51 in service with the US military was with the W.VA ANG in 1957. It is listed as one of the six best prop fighters of WWII.

[BnZs]

The question is: How much of it is a result of the complete different combat environment and the relative lack of wing tactics in the MA? Almost all combats on AH are more or less a chaotic, low altitude brawl by undisciplined pilots. This favors different traits in planes than for example the real ETO air combat. Slow but very maneuverable fighters like the Hurri, the B-239 or the Zero are performing well MA because of that.

I was not discussing the ETO or indeed the historic Mustang with that remark, but what it is the AHII MA.

And in the AHII MA, the P-51 is outfought by planes that are *not* easily disengaged from.

[BnZs]

And, this just goes to show you how what works in real life, doesn't necessarily translate into game.

In "R/L", the need for dogfighting is constantly forgotten between the wars, leading to deficiencies in pilot training and plane designs that amount to manned missiles. Scientific evaluation of air combat by pilots over the years, especially in the post-Vietnam era, eventually led to designs that did NOT throw maneuverability out the window for all-out performance.

Of course, in R/L in the ETO the P-51 was sufficiently maneuverable versus all of its opponents to dogfight, but that is a completely different topic.

[drgondog]

The following information is from North American Aviation records and not Wikipedia. All information is with full internal fuel loads only.

Wing Span        37.5  ft
length              32    ft
Ht.                  13.4  ft
Wing Area         340 Sq ft
Engine/Marlin     V.1.790 hp
Max Speed        443 mph
Clime rate         3.320 ft. per minute. Clime to 20.00 ft 7.5 minutes
Ceiling              41.900 ft
Range              1.140 miles of max cruise at 10.000 ft
weight             11.100 lbs
Guns               6-50 cal Browning machine guns

The last P-51 in service with the US military was with the W.VA ANG in 1957. It is listed as one of the six best prop fighters of WWII.

From memory the wing area for both B/D is 235 sq ft ---- not 340

[R 105]

Well I guess North American aviation was wrong about their own plane lol.

[Soulyss]

Something is wrong somewhere, gross wing area on production P-51's at least through the D model is around 235 sq ft according to the sources I have here,  America's Hundred Thousand lists it at 235.75 square feet.

A couple other documents at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html list the gross wing area at 233.4 square feet.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Dogfights is 1 part history and 9 parts horsepoo.  According to Dogfights any US plane will outperform any other plane in all departments. 

Pure unadulterated B.S. I've seen just about every episode, Dogfights was quick to point out the superiority of Japanese planes in categories of weight and maneuverability, for example. Try again.

[Krusty]

They are still 9 parts horsepoo. Even some of their comparisons are off. I recall one where they were comparing the wrong models and even just ignoring the graphics they seem to super-over-generalize everything to the point of nonsense.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

They are still 9 parts horsepoo. Even some of their comparisons are off. I recall one where they were comparing the wrong models and even just ignoring the graphics they seem to super-over-generalize everything to the point of nonsense.

His comments were as much horse crap as anything on the show. It's a fact, they give Axis aircraft credit for their maneuverability, as well as any speed or climb edge, or firepower, in their head to head comparisons. They may not be perfect, it is television. But the claim that they give always the edge to U.S. planes in every category in every comparison is simply an out and out lie. It just is not true.

Dogfights has/had any number of flaws. Stating the real ones and being honest is one thing. Slinging crap and making up lies is something else entirely. Honest fair criticism of the program is a good thing. And there is room for plenty of it. There's no need to make up outright lies about it.

[Krusty]

True enough

[MiloMorai]

Shouldn't the D/K have a slightly greater wing area than the B/C because of the leading edge crank from Station 61.5 inwards?

[R 105]

 So you think pilots like Bud Anderson, Don Bryan and Chuck Yeager and a many others just lie about the p-51? Really.

[Noir]

don't get them started on chuck yeager ! 

[Soulyss]

Shouldn't the D/K have a slightly greater wing area than the B/C because of the leading edge crank from Station 61.5 inwards?

Not sure, the table in America's Hundred Thousand lists the wing area "Through P-51D", the information on wwiiperformance.org is the Mustang IV which was the British designation for the D model 51.