P-51B

[Karnak]

So you think pilots like Bud Anderson, Don Bryan and Chuck Yeager and a many others just lie about the p-51? Really.

What lies has anybody accused them of?

Eric Brown, who flew more types of aircraft than any other pilot, did not include the P-51 on his list of "best fighters of WWII".  His list was the F4U-4, Fw190D-9 and Spitfire Mk XIV.

People who expect the P-51 to be the best fighter of WWII, period, are always going to be disappointed.  The P-51 is a great fighter, but like all aircraft it has design limitations and compromises.

[ink]

the 51-D in the hands of certain people................. is a viscous beast that will leave you      and doing this


thank fully there are less then you could count on your one hand, so when I see a 51 1vs1 I am like this 

51 I think is the highest kill count I have every month, and I always kill 2 -3 times the amount that kill me.....

[BnZs]

Eric Brown, who flew more types of aircraft than any other pilot, did not include the P-51 on his list of "best fighters of WWII".  His list was the F4U-4, Fw190D-9 and Spitfire Mk XIV.

Which is just a list of the highest-performing planes each nation managed to field in notable numbers, I think. Difficulty to find any consistency in it. The -4 and XIV clearly outclass the Mustang as dogfighter, but the D9 does not, nor does it outperform it at typical ETO alts.

In any case, I do not speak about the historic P-51, but only the beast as found in AHII.

[BnZs]

So you think pilots like Bud Anderson, Don Bryan and Chuck Yeager and a many others just lie about the p-51? Really.

According to them, the P-51 was an airplane that could dogfight on fairly equal terms with any of its German opposition while being much faster than most of it until late war. Totally different from AHII P-51 in the AHII main, which is what I speak of.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

His list was made based on his opinions having flown all the American, British and German contenders.  I don't think he got to fly an La-7, Yak-9U, Yak-3 or Ki-84 though.

He did not select the P-47N, Tempest Mk V or Bf109K-4, yet those are also very high performing aircraft that were produced and fielded in numbers.

[BnZs]

He did not select the P-47N, Tempest Mk V or Bf109K-4, yet those are also very high performing aircraft that were produced and fielded in numbers.

Yes, that is perhaps the oddest one, selecting the D9 over the Kurt as the finest German aircraft.

[MiloMorai]

Yes, that is perhaps the oddest one, selecting the D9 over the Kurt as the finest German aircraft.

As it should be.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Just drain your rear tank a bit,and its a entirely different handling aircraft. Like most aircraft we have. 

[321BAR]

51 I think is the highest kill count I have every month, and I always kill 2 -3 times the amount that kill me.....

you and me ink you and me

[Karnak]

Yes, that is perhaps the oddest one, selecting the D9 over the Kurt as the finest German aircraft.

The Bf109 had inherent flaws.  It had no rudder trim, it had such a small cockpit it was difficult to turn to check your six, its cockpit was small enough to be a significant barrier to getting adequate leverage on the stick.

The Fw190 shared none of those flaws.

[drgondog]

Well I guess North American aviation was wrong about their own plane lol.

Well I suppose that NAA (if any are still alive and connected to the Boeing website) know what they are talking about - but 340 sq ft is simply wrong.  If you believe that the dork webmasters at Boeing or Lockheed are infallible, check out rate of climb for P-38L and tell me you believe 20,000 ft per minute (~F-100 ROC)

The A through D, including K are cited as 235.75 sq ft (Gruenhagen "Mustang"- directly from NAA reference data) even though the leading edge strake on the D is more pronounced.

[drgondog]

What lies has anybody accused them of?

Eric Brown, who flew more types of aircraft than any other pilot, did not include the P-51 on his list of "best fighters of WWII".  His list was the F4U-4, Fw190D-9 and Spitfire Mk XIV.

People who expect the P-51 to be the best fighter of WWII, period, are always going to be disappointed.  The P-51 is a great fighter, but like all aircraft it has design limitations and compromises.

IIRC the ranking was F6F, Fw190D-9 and Spit XIV with P-51D ranked fourth.

I had a long running debate with Captain Brown (via letter)  because I felt that he undervalued excellent performance combined with exceptional range, creating a special niche for ranking fighters. 

He concluded the points I made about strategic footprint was valid, but his ranking was solely about his views regarding performance and agility... and we then launched into P-51B vs Fw 190D-9 and he fell back on firepower, so then we launched into air superiority (P-51B) versus wide range of destructive capability (favors D-9)...and then as an extension of new versions based on cycles (Fw 190D reached operational units in late November 1944 vs P-51D in May, 1944 versus P-51H in April 1945 and Ta 152 in ~ February/March?) and we went round and round again.

BTW he is an Aero Engineer in addition to being a reknowned pilot.  I may disagree but I concede his unquestioned qualifications to pontificate.

[MiloMorai]

The Bf109 had inherent flaws.  It had no rudder trim, it had such a small cockpit it was difficult to turn to check your six, its cockpit was small enough to be a significant barrier to getting adequate leverage on the stick.

The Fw190 shared none of those flaws.

When did the Fw190 get rudder trim?

[Widewing]

IIRC the ranking was F6F, Fw190D-9 and Spit XIV with P-51D ranked fourth.

I had a long running debate with Captain Brown (via letter)  because I felt that he undervalued excellent performance combined with exceptional range, creating a special niche for ranking fighters.  

He concluded the points I made about strategic footprint was valid, but his ranking was solely about his views regarding performance and agility... and we then launched into P-51B vs Fw 190D-9 and he fell back on firepower, so then we launched into air superiority (P-51B) versus wide range of destructive capability (favors D-9)...and then as an extension of new versions based on cycles (Fw 190D reached operational units in late November 1944 vs P-51D in May, 1944 versus P-51H in April 1945 and Ta 152 in ~ February/March?) and we went round and round again.

BTW he is an Aero Engineer in addition to being a reknowned pilot.  I may disagree but I concede his unquestioned qualifications to pontificate.

Over the many years, I have not had an opportunity to talk with Brown, and I was never really keen to bother. I have spoken to many WWII era pilots who involved in flight testing, with Corky Meyer being among the most objective. Brown and Meyer have butted heads many times. Brown's edge was being an actual combat pilot (albeit, limited), and Meyer's advantage was being a top tier developmental test pilot. Corky argued that the F4U-4 was utterly superior to the Fw 190D as an air to air fighter. You would think that he would have argued for a Grumman fighter, and he did point out that the F7F Tigercat and F8F Bearcat were even better than the F4U-4, but since neither had an opportunity to get into combat, he limited his choice to the Vought. Corky was also a vocal advocate for the P-47, especially late models. Corky believed that the P-47 was without peer at high altitude and did more to crush the core cadre of the Luftwaffe than any other fighter. I agree with this view.

At one time or another, Meyer flew everything in the US inventory, as well as Brit and captured German fighters. Corky was a graduate of MIT. He would eventually become President and CEO of Grumman.

Sadly, Corky passed away less than two weeks ago. A major loss for the aviation community. A big to Corwin Meyer, a giant in American aviation.

[drgondog]

   . Corky believed that the P-47 was without peer at high altitude and did more to crush the core cadre of the Luftwaffe than any other fighter. I agree with this view.

I tend to discard this view. The P-47 was an able adversary to the Fw 190s flown by LuftFlotte 3 pilots (I. & II./JG26 plus I.&III./JG2 based in France and Belgium and Holland between say July 1943 when the 56th and 78th and 4th began to develop combat skills in the P-47C through March 1944 when the P-51 and P-38 assumed long range target escort and the P-47s extended only to Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Hannover.  By the time the 8th had expanded to include the 353rd, 352nd, 355th, 359th and 361st as P-47 groups the first three had more scores than the others combined.

LuftFlott Reich replaced LuftMitte and was created in late 1943 for the defense of Germany and drew massive reinforcements from East and South that were completely untoched by P-47s except for a few equipped in 12th AF and then 15th - with similar range limitations.  So the Jugs were left to the ETO and MTO sidelines when the Germans pulled many of their fighter units out of range of the P-47.

I stated Fw 190s for a reason - the Jug simply did have superior perfromance above 20,000 feet against the Fw 190 and that is where the escorts were engaged. Different discussion against the 109 except for pure raw straight ahead speed and a margin in dive - although once going the 109 could more easily gain control in the higher speed ranges.

Summary - the Mustang killed the German Fighter Command from March through August when the P-47 finally got the ability to go past Brunswick, Mulhausen and Ulm - but still limited to penetration and withdrawal support.  In that role they occasionally got into some scraps with JG11 and JG1 and elements of JG3 and JG53.

One could postulate that the RAF had as much or more to do with attrition of experienced German pilots on the Kanal front as the P-47 - but neither (or both) had the same impact as the swath cut through the LuftFlotte Reich, as a meatgrinder for so many pilots from the east and south in addition to those within the German border, as the Mustang.

At one time or another, Meyer flew everything in the US inventory, as well as Brit and captured German fighters. Corky was a graduate of MIT. He would eventually become President and CEO of Grumman.

Sadly, Corky passed away less than two weeks ago. A major loss for the aviation community. A big to Corwin Meyer, a giant in American aviation.

Having disagree with Meyer he was A true giant -