Author Topic: P-51B  (Read 5330 times)

Offline Widewing

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2011, 06:07:46 PM »
I tend to discard this view. The P-47 was an able adversary to the Fw 190s flown by LuftFlotte 3 pilots (I. & II./JG26 plus I.&III./JG2 based in France and Belgium and Holland between say July 1943 when the 56th and 78th and 4th began to develop combat skills in the P-47C through March 1944 when the P-51 and P-38 assumed long range target escort and the P-47s extended only to Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Hannover.  By the time the 8th had expanded to include the 353rd, 352nd, 355th, 359th and 361st as P-47 groups the first three had more scores than the others combined.

LuftFlott Reich replaced LuftMitte and was created in late 1943 for the defense of Germany and drew massive reinforcements from East and South that were completely untoched by P-47s except for a few equipped in 12th AF and then 15th - with similar range limitations.  So the Jugs were left to the ETO and MTO sidelines when the Germans pulled many of their fighter units out of range of the P-47.

I stated Fw 190s for a reason - the Jug simply did have superior perfromance above 20,000 feet against the Fw 190 and that is where the escorts were engaged. Different discussion against the 109 except for pure raw straight ahead speed and a margin in dive - although once going the 109 could more easily gain control in the higher speed ranges.

Summary - the Mustang killed the German Fighter Command from March through August when the P-47 finally got the ability to go past Brunswick, Mulhausen and Ulm - but still limited to penetration and withdrawal support.  In that role they occasionally got into some scraps with JG11 and JG1 and elements of JG3 and JG53.

One could postulate that the RAF had as much or more to do with attrition of experienced German pilots on the Kanal front as the P-47 - but neither (or both) had the same impact as the swath cut through the LuftFlotte Reich, as a meatgrinder for so many pilots from the east and south in addition to those within the German border, as the Mustang.




Is this your opinion?
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Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2011, 08:34:28 PM »
yes
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2011, 08:41:04 PM »
yes
To amplify further - the P-47 was 'missing in action' beyond Dummer Lake to Stuttgart when the huge battles over Berlin, Leipzig, Brunswick, Munich, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, Halberstadt, Poznan, Brux, Stettin, Ruhland, etc, etc etc were being fought from January 1944 - August 1944.

The P-47 was a great fighter, cannot diminish its contribution, but nobody can make a sound claim that 'it' in the hands of the 12th, 8th and 9th AF defeated the Luftwaffe.
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Karnak

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2011, 10:32:49 PM »
To amplify further - the P-47 was 'missing in action' beyond Dummer Lake to Stuttgart when the huge battles over Berlin, Leipzig, Brunswick, Munich, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, Halberstadt, Poznan, Brux, Stettin, Ruhland, etc, etc etc were being fought from January 1944 - August 1944.

The P-47 was a great fighter, cannot diminish its contribution, but nobody can make a sound claim that 'it' in the hands of the 12th, 8th and 9th AF defeated the Luftwaffe.
I think a pretty solid case can be made that the P-47 broke the back of the Luftwaffe in the west.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2011, 12:04:06 AM »
To amplify further - the P-47 was 'missing in action' beyond Dummer Lake to Stuttgart when the huge battles over Berlin, Leipzig, Brunswick, Munich, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, Halberstadt, Poznan, Brux, Stettin, Ruhland, etc, etc etc were being fought from January 1944 - August 1944.

The P-47 was a great fighter, cannot diminish its contribution, but nobody can make a sound claim that 'it' in the hands of the 12th, 8th and 9th AF defeated the Luftwaffe.

No one said the P-47 defeated the Luftwaffe... It was an insurmountable menace, that effectively chased the Luftwaffe back into Germany, where they could organize defensive formations and not get chewed up by the Jugs. Moreover, Walt Boyne pointed out an interesting fact. P-47s shot down less German fighters than the P-51. However, the P-47 shot down more than twice as many Luftwaffe aces as the P-51. The typical Luftwaffe pilot faced by the P-47s from mid 1943 through the end of the year had over 100 hours of fighter time. The typical Luftwaffe pilot faced by the P-51 in July of 1944 had little more than 25 hours of fighter time. That is very significant. Thunderbolts seriously depleted the Luftwaffe's cadre of aces before the P-51B ever flew an escort mission. That loss of experienced pilots was critical to what was coming. However, don't dismiss the P-47s after the P-51s were in service in large numbers... The 56th was shooting down fighters over the outskirts of Berlin in middle/late 1944.

I attended a seminar given by Günther Rall. He took questions afterwards, and one fellow asked him, "Mr. Rall, what would you do when flying your Bf 109 and saw a P-47 diving on you?"

Rall's answer was, "I'd shoot it down."

I stood up, and Rall signaled me to ask my question.

"Mr. Rall, were you not shot down by a P-47?"

Visibly surprised that someone in the audience knew this, he replied.. "Yes, I was shot down by an unseen P-47 while I was engaged with other American fighters."

I replied, "It is my understanding, having spoken to some of the pilots involved, and having read the combat reports, that you and the rest of your Staffel were engaged with three P-47s. Two were on their first combat mission, and the third was Hub Zemke. Joe Powers, leading three other Thunderbolts, came down to aid Zemke. The result was that Powers shot you down and every 109 in you Staffel went down as well. Is that correct?"

"I believe it may be", said Rall.

"And, if my memory serves me, the wounds you suffered effectively ended your combat career, is that also correct?"

"Generally speaking, yes", said Rall, "I was unable to fly again for quite some time."

"Thank you Mr. Rall."  

Rall never shot down another Allied aircraft. His one and only encounter with P-47s ended his combat days.

By the way, P-38s began escorting bombers into Germany in October of 1943, providing over-target cover. These early escort missions were flown in P-38H models, and their range was less than that of the J models that began replacing the H beginning in November of '43.

Also, you seem to imply that the Bf 109 was not frequently encountered in 1943 by 8th AF P-47s... It was commonly encountered, and the typical 109 was also over-matched at high altitude. That was the prime advantage of the P-47. Depending on the model, FTH was 30k to 32K high, well above where the 190s and 109s found themselves on the back side of their power curves. The Luftwaffe was never able to solve the problem of the P-47, so they simply pulled back the bulk of their fighters out of range.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/4-care-26june43.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/4-godfrey-22dec43.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/4-evans-16aug43.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/4-evans-28july43.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/4-oregan-12aug43.jpg

These are typical encounter reports from mid 1943 involving Bf 109s. The split between 190s and 109s shot down was nearly 50-50, with some ill-fated 110s thrown in.
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2011, 12:43:29 AM »
I think a pretty solid case can be made that the P-47 broke the back of the Luftwaffe in the west.

I think if you said the Spitfire and Jug did it, with a bit of help from the 38 and 51B, you'd have a solid case :)  While some of the LW guys might argue it, I think it's safe to say the back of the Luftwaffe was broken in the West by May 44, and there just weren't that many Mustangs involved, and those that were involved were the B models. 
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Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2011, 06:33:46 AM »
No one said the P-47 defeated the Luftwaffe... It was an insurmountable menace, that effectively chased the Luftwaffe back into Germany, where they could organize defensive formations and not get chewed up by the Jugs. Moreover, Walt Boyne pointed out an interesting fact. P-47s shot down less German fighters than the P-51. However, the P-47 shot down more than twice as many Luftwaffe aces as the P-51. The typical Luftwaffe pilot faced by the P-47s from mid 1943 through the end of the year had over 100 hours of fighter time. The typical Luftwaffe pilot faced by the P-51 in July of 1944 had little more than 25 hours of fighter time. That is very significant. Thunderbolts seriously depleted the Luftwaffe's cadre of aces before the P-51B ever flew an escort mission. That loss of experienced pilots was critical to what was coming. However, don't dismiss the P-47s after the P-51s were in service in large numbers... The 56th was shooting down fighters over the outskirts of Berlin in middle/late 1944.

First things first - JG26 and JG2 were never 'chased' back into Germany until December 1944 and in fact retreated back into western Germany then.  You might note that they fought and fought quite well against total RAF TAC, 9th AF TAC and 8th AF FC - mostly Jugs until the 78th, 353rd and 356th converted to Mustangs in fall of 44.

The rest of LuftFlotte Reich were initially based and set up in Germany ranging from West to East to North to south.  They were never 'chased' back either until the Allies over ran their bases.  What the Luftwaffe Did is mass out of range of the Jugs so that a.) the ZG and NZG 110s and Ju 88s could join.  The Jugs Did hammer the twins when they ventured past Dummer Lake so they stopped venturing past Dummer Lake and later were hammered by the P-38 and Mustang.

I never 'dismissed' the Jug and did mention that the P-47 (D-25 and higher with wet wing) were ranging to Leipzig in late July timeframe.  Nor did I ever denigrate the 56th FG which I consider the best of the US combat units in WWII.


Second thing - I didn't say the Jug didn't shoot down 109s - what I implied is that they were more effective vs the 190. The 56th had a 278 to 264 ratio 190 to 109 and the 109 totals went way up from D-Day forward. The 78th 125:110, the 4th 73:47 and the 353rd 71:101  ---- these are your 'old hands/long term Jug units. When they switched to 51's the ratios flipped. The above figures were compiled by me from looking at nearly every encounter report in the 8th AF - If I ever figure out how to post an attachment I'll show you the results and it will be published in my new book.

These are typical encounter reports from mid 1943 involving Bf 109s. The split between 190s and 109s shot down was nearly 50-50, with some ill-fated 110s thrown in.

See above comments. Take a sample of ~ 500 for 1943 and look at the entire mix.

I'll address the rest next.
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2011, 07:01:13 AM »
I think a pretty solid case can be made that the P-47 broke the back of the Luftwaffe in the west.

Then see if you can make it - and factor into the equation that starting in late 1943 the Luftwaffe flooded LuftFlotte Reich with more than 30 Staffel's from east and south - most of which were for the defense of the Reich - not the Lowlands where JG2 and 26 along with some JG3 and JG27 units from Munster to Frankfurt were based.
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline FLS

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2011, 07:02:14 AM »
Drgondog to post an attachment you can upload it to a file sharing site like mediafire and then put the link, mediafire can create the link for you, in your post.

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2011, 07:48:24 AM »
However, the P-47 shot down more than twice as many Luftwaffe aces as the P-51.

Widewing - with all due respect that is a 'fact' not in evidence.  Your sources?? - and more curiously name the matching process for a Luftwaffe ace killed in combat with a P-47 versus B-17 vs B-24.  I have been able to identify several such cases but I know of no possible factual roll ups.

The typical Luftwaffe pilot faced by the P-47s from mid 1943 through the end of the year had over 100 hours of fighter time. The typical Luftwaffe pilot faced by the P-51 in July of 1944 had little more than 25 hours of fighter time. That is very significant. Thunderbolts seriously depleted the Luftwaffe's cadre of aces before the P-51B ever flew an escort mission.

IIRC the Luftwaffe had over 500 WWII aces survive the war.  What is your definition of 'seriously depleted' and what is your fact base for aces killed by P-47 vs P-51?

Care to draw your attention to the attrition the Luftwaffe faced vs the P-51 between January and July 1944 before skating on to you conclusions? Illustrate for the audience what the Luftwaffe fighter pilot attrition was over Germany in those six months.

And while the replacement pilots coming in from flight school were that low in fighter time (and in some cases stick time) quite a few replacements - particularly for the Sturm units were high time twin engine fighter and bomber pilots.. for example the conversion of ZG26 into JG4 Fw 190 units. What is patently Not true is that the 'average' fighter pilot time was 25 hours.



 That loss of experienced pilots was critical to what was coming. However, don't dismiss the P-47s after the P-51s were in service in large numbers... The 56th was shooting down fighters over the outskirts of Berlin in middle/late 1944.

I totally agree - see the above comments in previous post.

I attended a seminar given by Günther Rall. He took questions afterwards, and one fellow asked him, "Mr. Rall, what would you do when flying your Bf 109 and saw a P-47 diving on you?"

Rall's answer was, "I'd shoot it down."

I stood up, and Rall signaled me to ask my question.

"Mr. Rall, were you not shot down by a P-47?"

Visibly surprised that someone in the audience knew this, he replied.. "Yes, I was shot down by an unseen P-47 while I was engaged with other American fighters."

I replied, "It is my understanding, having spoken to some of the pilots involved, and having read the combat reports, that you and the rest of your Staffel were engaged with three P-47s. Two were on their first combat mission, and the third was Hub Zemke. Joe Powers, leading three other Thunderbolts, came down to aid Zemke. The result was that Powers shot you down and every 109 in you Staffel went down as well. Is that correct?"

"I believe it may be", said Rall.

"And, if my memory serves me, the wounds you suffered effectively ended your combat career, is that also correct?"

"Generally speaking, yes", said Rall, "I was unable to fly again for quite some time."

"Thank you Mr. Rall."  

Rall never shot down another Allied aircraft. His one and only encounter with P-47s ended his combat days.

On May 12 Rall clobbered Zemke's flight, had Zemke trapped and hollering for help while hanging on by a thread.  Rankin caught Rall w/o a wingman in a single duel with Zemke with four T-Bolts and reveresed the tables with a.) altitude advantage, b.) airspeed advantage, c.) numerical advantage of 4:1 so that Rall could not engage in a turning fight and had to evade in a strike zone entirely in favor of a P-47.

If that thesis is the one you wish to make for the superiority of a P-47 over an 109 it seems you could do 'better'.

As to his 'squadron or flight' being shot down by Jugs - there is no way to state that either - either that they were shot down (not in evidence in any documented account I am aware of). It is documented that Rall was alone and chasing Zemke by Rankin's own account (and Zemke's).  It is documented (by Zemke) that Rankin's flight was the only one to pull back from the Zemke Fan of four flights of four out in front of 1st TF/3BD headed for Frankfurt on the way to oil refineries at Brux, Zwiekau, etc.  It is documented that the 56th, 4th and 357th shot down ~ 50 between Frankfurt and Giessen.  It is documented that the 352nd and 353rd and 78th also scored between Koblenz and Frankfurt.

So - your sources on Jugs shooting down Rall's squadron again?

Rall was out of combat until April because of the infection in his hand that didn't heal - and when he returned it was just before the end... so the point you want to make is a.) about Jug superiority here or b.) a .50 cal API is a bad thing when it hits you?


By the way, P-38s began escorting bombers into Germany in October of 1943, providing over-target cover. These early escort missions were flown in P-38H models, and their range was less than that of the J models that began replacing the H beginning in November of '43.

Yes... and?

the 20th and 55th shot down a total of 88 and 103 respectively for All P-38 sorties combined through July when they were fully converted and the biggest score scored in a day was 19 by Landers led 55th in Bernburg area July 7 - nearly double the highest day total of any prior P-38 Group.  Those two groups doubled their air to air totals in 51's.  BTW the 20th and 55th were barey 2:1 air credit to air loss in 38's but more than 10:1, respectively air to air in the 51.


Also, you seem to imply that the Bf 109 was not frequently encountered in 1943 by 8th AF P-47s... It was commonly encountered, and the typical 109 was also over-matched at high altitude. That was the prime advantage of the P-47. Depending on the model, FTH was 30k to 32K high, well above where the 190s and 109s found themselves on the back side of their power curves.

WW- read my post again. as well as below.  The Jugs were constrained to close escort until January when 8th FC was turned loose.  Close escort for B-17s was ~ 26-28K and for B-24s 22-24K --- not 32K The Fw 190 and the BMW801 was on the back side in the 20K plus but the 109 was just fine at 26K... both were slower but the 109 could out turn and out climb the 47. pre and post WI (Jan) and Paddle Prop (jan) at those altitudes..

The Luftwaffe was never able to solve the problem of the P-47, so they simply pulled back the bulk of their fighters out of range.  Where they could never solve the problem of the P-51!

What I implied is that in 1943 the Jug had a better high altitude advantage over the Fw 190 (true) than over the Me 109G-6 (also true) at bomber escort altitudes (also true) - There were more 190s in JG2 and JG26, and more 109s in JG3 and JG 27 in western Gy... So, the early battles over French targets and North Sea/Holland would encounter 190s and Me 110s more than 109s - until the 110s were pulled back and the bomber escorts got range to punch the German border.

 

We can agree to disagree and let facts decide the questions.  The German commanders and pilots that survived Jan 1944 through July 1944 weren't lamenting their inability to 'solve the P-47"
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2011, 07:58:18 AM »
I think if you said the Spitfire and Jug did it, with a bit of help from the 38 and 51B, you'd have a solid case :)  While some of the LW guys might argue it, I think it's safe to say the back of the Luftwaffe was broken in the West by May 44, and there just weren't that many Mustangs involved, and those that were involved were the B models.  

Guppy - look at LW attrition in LuftFlotte Reich (JG1, JG3, JG5, JG11, JG27, JG300) from January 1944 (354 - 9th AF)
(357th FG -Feb, 4th FG -feb, 355th FG Mar, 352nd FG April, 359th FG April, 339th FG April, 361st - early May)

Contrast those losses to JG26 and JG2 along the Channel.

Big Week was the cross over for the Mustang as the big battles were deep into Germany and the P-47 air battles, even for the great 56th, were from Dummer Lake westward- way short for Berlin, Brunswick, Halberstadt, Schweinfurt, Leipzig, etc, etc... and the 4th FG alone shot down more in March than the 55th FG(P-38s) shot down from November through July,1944.  The 354th, 357th alone shot down approximately the total of all the 8th FC P-47s in March, 1944 and the 355th and 4th added another 170
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 08:16:55 AM by drgondog »
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Guppy35

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2011, 03:35:06 PM »
Are we debating which is the better bird, or had the bigger impact?  I'm not discounting the ability of the 51.  I'm a 4th FG fan after all :)  Having read as a kid way back when about the race between the 4th and 56th for total claims, that always was a Jug vs 51 bit.  Gotta give the 56th their due in having the most air to air claims of all the 8th FGs

In the end, I'm still of the belief that the guys and the birds doing the work in 43-early 44 are the ones that turned the tide and had the biggest impact.

Had I been there and given a choice of which of the two I'd take into combat, I'd have taken a P51
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Offline drgondog

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2011, 08:37:49 PM »
Are we debating which is the better bird, or had the bigger impact?  I'm not discounting the ability of the 51.  I'm a 4th FG fan after all :)  Having read as a kid way back when about the race between the 4th and 56th for total claims, that always was a Jug vs 51 bit.  Gotta give the 56th their due in having the most air to air claims of all the 8th FGs

In the end, I'm still of the belief that the guys and the birds doing the work in 43-early 44 are the ones that turned the tide and had the biggest impact.

Had I been there and given a choice of which of the two I'd take into combat, I'd have taken a P51

Guppy - my only point is that if you have an opinion - then supprt it with facts.  This is always an interesting debate and I'm not sure there are winners.  Each proponent of a point of view usually cites facts that support their view.

A significantly smaller % of LW confronting USAAF in 1943 fell in contrast to 1944.  There is a 'blurring' of cause and effect between P-47 in 1943, early 1944 and P-51 from December 1943 to February 1944.  After that timeframe the numbers and impact overwhelmingly support the Mustang. The Luftwaffe, including Rall, considered the P-51 to be the 'best Allied fighter'. In my opinion it does not mean the 51 was superior to the Spit - it meant it was intrinsically equal or greater to the 109 and 190 Over Germany - a Huge distinction!
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Widewing

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2011, 10:03:48 PM »
We can agree to disagree and let facts decide the questions.  The German commanders and pilots that survived Jan 1944 through July 1944 weren't lamenting their inability to 'solve the P-47"

Re: P-47 ace kills vs P-51 ace kills.
I recall reading this in a Walt Boyne article. Walt is a friend, but I won't bother him with "some guy on a meaningless BBS wants your sources, because he doesn't believe your analysis" request. Walt stated it as fact and I have no reason to believe he's wrong. Based upon Walt's thoroughness, I imagine that his data was vetted carefully.

As to Rall. My understanding is that Rall was leading his Staffel, which consisted of 7 Bf 109s that day, but please correct me if my memory is faulty. Rall was not alone, despite much revisionist propaganda stating that he was. Zemke lost two pilots, both low time rookies. Rall stated in a 1999 interview, that he learned much later than only two of his pilots returned to their airfield on May 12. I have that interview in a magazine somewhere in my archives. Joe Powers, with Joe Vitale flying his wing, has been often credited with shooting down Rall. However, my own examination today of the combat reports of both pilots does support Rankin being the pilot who got Rall on May 12, along with four additional 109s he claimed. Likewise, the reports confirm that 109s were everywhere and Rall was not alone in the sky.

For those interested in the encounter reports....

Rankin's report.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/56-rankin-12may44.jpg

His wingman's report.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/56-thomton-12may44.jpg

As to close escort... Close escort does not mean flying the bomber's wing. It meant staying close to the bomber stream. Typically, the P-47s held station between 3,000 and 5,000 feet above the bombers. Bob Johnson told me that they rarely cruised below 30,000 feet. Up there, the P-47s held the tactical and performance advantage. Moreover, the typical 190s and 109s of the time had a FTH of 22,000 feet or less. If they climbed beyond that, they were on the back side of their power curves. That is not a good place to be. Once the Jugs start coming down, it was usually buttholes and elbows trying to evade the bounce.

I'm going to assume that you don't fly Aces High. If you did, you would realize that the 109G-6 has no business tangling with P-47s at high altitude. If you believe that the 109 can out-turn a Jug at Bomber altitudes, you would be wrong to assume that it can be an advantage. Why? Because they lack the power to sustain a turn, and even more importantly, the loss of airspeed associated with attempting to tightly maneuver at high alt leads to stalls and nasty spins. Remember, it's indicated airspeed that counts, not true airspeed. At 27k, the 109G-6's cruise speed is not very far from it's stall speed. Load it with 3g or more and you'll find the slats popping out and the aircraft threatening to depart. Thus to maneuver effectively, the 109 pilot must trade altitude for airspeed. Meanwhile, the P-47 has plenty of speed and reserve power. He doesn't have to turn, but merely yo-yos and blam! One dead 109. I've demonstrated this with arguably the best 109 pilot in the game. He was unable to do anything but try to drag the fight down to low level as my P-47D-25 was running circles around his G-6. Around 15,000 feet, the 109G-6 began to gain a slight edge, but not enough to win. Finally down at lower altitude, the 109 was the superior turning fighter to the point where he could gain and hold an advantage, but it wasn't easy. One mistake and the P-47's battery will shred the 109. Fighting at high altitude is largely a foreign experience for most AHII players. It's a completely different world up there, and most certainly not the domain of the 109, including the K-4. Up at 30k and beyond, the Jugs rule the roost. However, the Spitfire Mk. IX and Mk. XIV are very able, as is the P-51B (better than the D up high) and the mighty F4U-4. P-38s are formidable, but they have serious issues with compressibility, so getting their nose below the horizon for more that a few seconds can lead to buffeting and control lock-up. The L model's dive recovery flaps do allow for decent elevator authority up to Mach 0.70, and it's still controllable up nearly Mach 0.73. However, the G and J models will be having trouble. So, to reiterate, high altitude performance is all about available power. Low to medium altitude turning ability is of little consequence up high. This is why so many very capable low to medium altitude fighters are absolutely awful at high altitude, and the 109s are not vastly better than those.

In the game, the P-47M and N models are all but untouchable at 30k. Up there, they reach 476 mph. Indeed, they can sustain 460 mph at 40k until they run out of gas. The balance of the P-47s are not quite as fast, but more than fast enough for the 109s to deal with effectively.

So, if you are writing a book on WWII fighter combat, you can learn much by gaining some simulator experience. Aces high is the best WWII fighter simulator that exists. Especially in terms of flight physics and performance fidelity. Sure, it uses a game as the basis of the experience, but the game is less important than the experience. Give it a try, it will provide insight that all of the combat reports on earth can't begin to equal.

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: P-51B
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2011, 01:48:35 AM »
Guppy - my only point is that if you have an opinion - then supprt it with facts.  This is always an interesting debate and I'm not sure there are winners.  Each proponent of a point of view usually cites facts that support their view.

A significantly smaller % of LW confronting USAAF in 1943 fell in contrast to 1944.  There is a 'blurring' of cause and effect between P-47 in 1943, early 1944 and P-51 from December 1943 to February 1944.  After that timeframe the numbers and impact overwhelmingly support the Mustang. The Luftwaffe, including Rall, considered the P-51 to be the 'best Allied fighter'. In my opinion it does not mean the 51 was superior to the Spit - it meant it was intrinsically equal or greater to the 109 and 190 Over Germany - a Huge distinction!

The facts end up being it was a war of attrition and by the time the 51 was out in force that air war had begun to turn as the quality of Allied pilots was superior as a whole to the Luftwaffe and the numbers were as well.  That doesn't negate the quality of the Mustang as a fighter.  But in my eyes it was the guys early on, that were learning on the 'fly' so to speak and fighting a higher caliber of Luftwaffe pilot that turned that tide.  I suppose you can really go back to the RAF pilots who kept going back across the Channel in Spit Vs fighting the 190 that was a far superior bird, fighting over it's own turf.  Throw in the Russian pilots who chewed up the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front, the Allied guys who were fighting in North Africa up through Italy and it's the same thing. 

Again it's not a shot at the 51.  The Merlin 51 just wasn't there as long.  I'm sure those guys fighting 109s and 190s in P40s and P39s in the MTO would have loved a good Merlin Mustang :)

In terms of Rall's comments, it makes sense that the 51 was the primary concern at that point as it was doing the escorting deep while the Jugs and remaining 38s were ground pounding.  Of course which was more important in the long run, is also open for debate, but I'm sure the German soldiers on the ground might have a different opinion then Rall :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters