no icon for me,none for you

[gyrene81]

You're wrong. A Cessna crossing your path two miles off looks like its sitting on your cowling.

You can easily tell whether or not you are looking at a car or a pickup at 6000 feet AGL.

really...and i supposed you have first hand experience too? your version of a mile must be different than the standard american measurment...at 1.5 miles (7920 feet) you can tell if it's single engine or multi engine, but unless you're very well versed in aircraft identification or the plane is some neon color exactly what it is can be difficult...and i'm not talking about big passenger planes...a piper can be mistaken for a cessna at that range. far from looking like it's on your cowling.

[ink]

Ink, you are arguing with someone who actual experience spotting air traffic and generally observing the world in as seen from an airplane. Planes are big. The sky is empty.

Hitech himself has stated that it is easier to track airplanes during mah-noovering in r/l than it is in here.

so you and Hitech have fought and maneuvered against nme planes in a combat situation, that had real guns, that was painted to blend in with their surroundings.  

that's all fine and dandy...and if hitech himself was standing before me and said that to me I would call BS and laugh....there is no way it is easier to track a maneuvering plane in the real world, than here with Icons on.

I would like to see the planes Hitech flew against.....

from a distance I can see how icons make up the difference of our vision that the monitor can not replicate, but as they get closer it goes beyond making up the difference and goes straight to a "game" helper to view the cons and keep track of them.

how many players would stay if there were no icons?   well we see how many people enjoy the NO icon arena.

if the icon changed at a certain point maybe around 600, to say a very small red circle with NO distance counter and or plane type, or hell just make them disappear at a certain distance.

besides Hitech says Vulching is cool and I think its one of the lamest things one could do in a combat game. so I don't think EVERYTHING hitech says is perfect or correct.

[SlapShot]

WOW ... end of discussion.

Ink has all the answers. He knows exactly what everyone sees and knows everyone's personal experiences ... bottom line ... everyone else is full of BS ... except Ink.

I'm done.

[Ack-Ack]

BnZ in completely correct in the reasons why icons are in the game, it's a result of modeling a 3D world in a 2D display.  Frankly, the OP's wish sounds to me as a way to help avoid combat as opposed to help increase both combat and the quality of combat in this game.

ack-ack

[ink]

WOW ... end of discussion.

Ink has all the answers. He knows exactly what everyone sees and knows everyone's personal experiences ... bottom line ... everyone else is full of BS ... except Ink.

I'm done.

that's right give up

BnZ in completely correct in the reasons why icons are in the game, it's a result of modeling a 3D world in a 2D display.  Frankly, the OP's wish sounds to me as a way to help avoid combat as opposed to help increase both combat and the quality of combat in this game.

ack-ack

I did agree with the fact that icons help to "see" the way our eyes do, I understand the whys....I never disagreed with that....what I can not agree with is a Neon Sign over the plane the same size as the plane, NOT being "easier" as it would be in real life.

[BnZs]

so you and Hitech have fought and maneuvered against nme planes in a combat situation, that had real guns, that was painted to blend in with their surroundings.  

Armament has nothing to do with the visibility of planes. Camouflage schemes do not work when you lack a background to blend in with, which is exactly the case when you are thousands of feet in the air. It may help when the planes are grounded or NOE, that is about it. (Note I am NOT discussing shiny vrs. matte paint schemes here....indeed the flash of the former can give away an aircraft's presence many, many miles away.)

that's all fine and dandy...and if hitech himself was standing before me and said that to me I would call BS and laugh....there is no way it is easier to track a maneuvering plane in the real world, than here with Icons on.

I see...so your suppositions trump other's actual experience?

from a distance I can see how icons make up the difference of our vision that the monitor can not replicate, but as they get closer it goes beyond making up the difference and goes straight to a "game" helper to view the cons and keep track of them.


if the icon changed at a certain point maybe around 600, to say a very small red circle with NO distance counter and or plane type, or hell just make them disappear at a certain distance.

You have the relationship almost exactly backwards. Icons indeed almost certainly do make airplanes easier to spot at 6,000 yards than they are in real life, but it is a necessary compromise. As I have pointed out before, the primary difficulty in spotting aircraft is that there is just SO MUCH sky to cover, not that they are hard to see or identify once you put your eyes on them. You could possibly get a level of spotting and identifying ability close to that you would enjoy in r/l by cranking zoom to maximum, but the limited FOV would make it unnaturally difficult to scan and fly.

A primary limitation of computer screens is the tendency of 3D objects to blend into similar colored backgrounds they are thousands of feet away from, which is not the case in real life.

[BnZs]

If you cannot tell the difference between a high-wing and a low-wing at 1.5 miles in clear air, get new glasses.

You should also be able to see the difference between round and squared off wingtips, provided you can see the planform.

The almost ubiquitous mistake for new pilots was opening firing on enemy aircraft while still *too far away*, because the aircraft looked closer to them than it actually was.

really...and i supposed you have first hand experience too? your version of a mile must be different than the standard american measurment...at 1.5 miles (7920 feet) you can tell if it's single engine or multi engine, but unless you're very well versed in aircraft identification or the plane is some neon color exactly what it is can be difficult...and i'm not talking about big passenger planes...a piper can be mistaken for a cessna at that range. far from looking like it's on your cowling.

[ink]

Armament has nothing to do with the visibility of planes. Camouflage schemes do not work when you lack a background to blend in with, which is exactly the case when you are thousands of feet in the air. It may help when the planes are grounded or NOE, that is about it. (Note I am NOT discussing shiny vrs. matte paint schemes here....indeed the flash of the former can give away an aircraft's presence many, many miles away.)
I see...so your suppositions trump other's actual experience?

You have the relationship almost exactly backwards. Icons indeed almost certainly do make airplanes easier to spot at 6,000 yards than they are in real life, but it is a necessary compromise. As I have pointed out before, the primary difficulty in spotting aircraft is that there is just SO MUCH sky to cover, not that they are hard to see or identify once you put your eyes on them. You could possibly get a level of spotting and identifying ability close to that you would enjoy in r/l by cranking zoom to maximum, but the limited FOV would make it unnaturally difficult to scan and fly.

A primary limitation of computer screens is the tendency of 3D objects to blend into similar colored backgrounds they are thousands of feet away from, which is not the case in real life.

good arguments...yes i will agree that it is a lot easier to track an nme con at 12k feet then at 1200...most fights in AH are close to the deck and almost always end up there, so a plane painted in a way to  blend in would go a long way to hide itself, which was done very often. besides the fact that they could hide in clouds which we all know we can not in AH.

 I know guns don't have anything to do with it, only point in that is if there were guns involved in Hitech's "fight" then things would be a bit different the minds on other things, like not getting shot.

every thing I have read tells me there where far fewer real "dogfights" that happened then what has been fantasized about, most kills were sneaks, many many planes flew by each other without them seeing each other...if they like us had Giant neon signs over their heads how many would have seen the nme?   

someone getting sneaked up on in AH all he has to do is look back BAM there is the icon......does not matter how the nme positions him self he will not be missed the ICON is glaring right at him, this is not the case in a real situation, far too many plane were shot down from sneak attacks...why?   because the nme was not spotted.

seems really simple to me

[gyrene81]

If you cannot tell the difference between a high-wing and a low-wing at 1.5 miles in clear air, get new glasses.

You should also be able to see the difference between round and squared off wingtips, provided you can see the planform.

The almost ubiquitous mistake for new pilots was opening firing on enemy aircraft while still *too far away*, because the aircraft looked closer to them than it actually was.

didn't say high-wing or low-wing...or round wingtips vs squared...both companies make and have made a variety of aircraft that have some similarities in basic shape, including rudder and wing shape...there are obvious differences that someone very familiar with both makes could pick out given the time to observe, but that's not what we're talking about.

american pilots were trained to fire between 500 and 600 yards by the relative size of the enemy aircraft in the gunsight...not because to the naked eye they looked closer than they were...with barely 20 hours of actual flight time and zero combat time it's easy to understand a new pilot firing too early in the heat of battle.

[321BAR]

Easier to track than what?

That real life? No

Than "no icons" yes.

krusty you ever fly a 51 mustang in 4G high speed turns while trying to spot a wing of 4 190s barreling for B17s and doing all this while checking your six for the 109K4 that spotted you in real life? No... so you can't make a statement based upon this. But one can say that that neon sign is showing you alot more info than just what it is and is much easier to make out against camoflage/ground textures (something in real life you didn't have either and camo WAS meant so you could not see the enemy. So in theory it is much harder to track something that blends with the ground in real life and with no icons than with the NEON RED icons over your plane

[Dawger]

My 10,000 plus hours in real airplanes tell me they are hard to spot and hard to track.

I especially like the Cessna at two miles comment.

2 miles is 10,560 feet.

That is a 40 minute walk. A 16 minute jog.

And folks are claiming they can identify the specific make and model of a airplane with 30 foot wingspan.

No point in arguing with delusion as grand as that.

[Karnak]

My 10,000 plus hours in real airplanes tell me they are hard to spot and hard to track.

I especially like the Cessna at two miles comment.

2 miles is 10,560 feet.

That is a 40 minute walk. A 16 minute jog.

And folks are claiming they can identify the specific make and model of a airplane with 30 foot wingspan.

No point in arguing with delusion as grand as that.

And HiTech says you are wrong about the icons.  It is his game, you lose.

Also, nobody claimed to know the specific make at that range.

[gyrene81]

And HiTech says you are wrong about the icons.  It is his game, you lose.

Also, nobody claimed to know the specific make at that range.

dawger didn't say anything about icons karnak...and read bnz's comment about the cessna at 2 miles again...according to him that's close enough to look like it's sitting on your cowling.

[Delirium]

There is no way in he-double-hockey-sticks that this game could render (in detail) what we see in real life when it comes to depth perception and lighting which is key to depth perception.

Bingo...

Until true VR 3D headsets become the baseline for all of Hitech's customers, icons will exist. That is, unless you fly in the AvA;



To that one AvA staff member that decided to send me a rude PM, I have no problem getting kills in a no icon atmosphere. The last FSO I flew with no icons I had plenty of scalps, I just don't like it. It favors the faster of the two aircraft, further favors the guy with the better computer, and lessens the amount of turn fighting that takes place.

edit: if an alternate option was available instead of full or no icons, I'd be all for it. For example, a small red dot (that grew in size as the distance lessened) under the aircraft, rather than text. Something you could miss if you were carelessly looking around, particularly at great distances, but something you could still pick up much more easily at closer range. Also, if the dot was below the aircraft it wouldn't appear if you were low enough to be helped by the ground clutter.

[BnZs]

good arguments...yes i will agree that it is a lot easier to track an nme con at 12k feet then at 1200...most fights in AH are close to the deck and almost always end up there, so a plane painted in a way to  blend in would go a long way to hide itself, which was done very often. besides the fact that they could hide in clouds which we all know we can not in AH.

One thousand feet is far enough away from any background that you should have 0 trouble picking distinguishing a large object from the ground cover, no matter how it is painted. Again, this is a limitation of computer graphics.

Actually hiding in clouds could make your plane stick out like a sore thumb, depending on lighting. In any case, rendering of cloud effects is a separate issue.

 

every thing I have read tells me there where far fewer real "dogfights" that happened then what has been fantasized about, most kills were sneaks,

I have already addressed the fact that putting the number of "sneak" kills at 80% is almost certainly a gross overestimation. There are some indications that it may be as low as 20%.

someone getting sneaked up on in AH all he has to do is look back BAM there is the icon......does not matter how the nme positions him self he will not be missed the ICON is glaring right at him, this is not the case in a real situation, far too many plane were shot down from sneak attacks...why?   because the nme was not spotted.
seems really simple to me

Sit down in your computer chair. Take your joystick in hand. Now look backwards over your left and right shoulders. Try to do so at least every 5 seconds. Tell me how easy that is. Now scan the ENTIRE sphere of directional space surrounding you, trying to hit every spot at least every 5 seconds. Keep this up for awhile. In abit you will understand why an attacking airplane might not be spotted. Hint: It is NOT because an aircraft is hard to see in the clear blue sky, the way it can be in AHII.