N1K2 Flaps

[Krusty]

You persistently portray the Japanese as absolute incompetent idiots.

That is an outright fabrication. I do no such thing.

[Charge]

Fabrication?

Can you tell us where you came up with this: "It was intended to help greenhorn pilots with little to no experience in turn fighting."

Your statement does not include source of "maybe" or "probably" and as such it is presented as a fact, and if it has no basis in reality what so ever it is fabrication. 

***

What I don't understand is that if an aircraft is capable of creating G in a turn what does it need the flaps for? I'm not a combat pilot but I'd be deploying flaps when I'm not able to pull enough Gs anymore i.e. my speed has bled off and I'm not creating enough lift to keep up the Gs and my turn rate starts to suffer.

Anybody have an idea what the mercury switch actually does and how it functions?

-C+

[nrshida]

Respectfully Krusty, you do mostly come across as rather biased against the Japanese aircraft.

[Karnak]

That is an outright fabrication. I do no such thing.

You admit the Japanese built 250-450 Ki-84-Ib aircraft, yet insist they were too stupid to have any idea what to do with them once they had left the factory.  You know, or should know at least, that the Japanese were pretty aggressive about destroying documents before we got hold of them and there are many, many gaps in our knowledge of the Japanese side of the war as a consequence of that.  I cannot say for sure that they ever used the Ki-84-Ib, though it seems pretty likely, but I cannot see the evidence to support your claim that they absolutely did not use them.

You insisted for a very long time that all Ki-43s were armed with one 7.7mm and one 12.7mm gun despite the fact that the article you were using as a reference source for that claim explicitly stated that it pertained specifically to the Ki-43-I.

Those are just two examples.

[Krusty]

You admit the Japanese built 250-450 Ki-84-Ib aircraft, yet insist they were too stupid to have any idea what to do with them once they had left the factory. 

LOL!!! I KNEW you would try throwing this in my face.

Here's your false quote: You're taking offense at the idea and implying I made an insult when I did not. I never implied "too stupid" (your words purely, and only your words intended to slander me) and no you cannot prove any of those 4x 20mm Ki-84s ever saw combat so far. That's a totally different discussion with tons of precedent behind it.

If you want to rehash old topics, go resurrect them when you can bring anything new to the table. Until then don't slander me, put words in my mouth, or try to make me the bad guy.

To the topic at hand, although I suspect you don't give a rat's arse other than to attack me on another subject....

Green pilots freak out. They have blinders. They don't look around. They can only focus on so much. They don't have experience, or the calm ability to perform tasks. You cannot claim ignorance about the fact that the Japanese air force and navy pilots were mostly inexperienced "greenhorns" (to use my own term) at the time the N1K2-J was produced. The auto flaps was for these green inexperienced pilots to give them any edge that experienced pilots wouldn't need.

I never said they were ignorant. I said it was to help them. There's a big difference and you jump to a conclusion you want. You want to make me the villain. Sadly I must squash your desire here.

If you're going to slander me and twist everything I say, I might as well use a couple of very recent and very relevant quotes. I'll let you try slandering these folks instead. They're saying the same thing I was, but about flaps use in general.

the thing is, how simple was it to apply the equivalent of a notch or 2 during a split ess or something, while maybe firing guns at a fleeting target, and then just as quickly removing said notch or 2?

It wasn't easy at all... Which is one reason why flaps were not commonly used in dogfights. It takes practice and mental training to do multiple things at one time. Trying learning Heel and Toe braking/down shifting... Takes a lot of practice to get it nailed consistently.

[Wmaker]

Fabrication?

Can you tell us where you came up with this: "It was intended to help greenhorn pilots with little to no experience in turn fighting."

Your statement does not include source of "maybe" or "probably" and as such it is presented as a fact, and if it has no basis in reality what so ever it is fabrication.  

Why don't you answer the above Krusty?

What's your source for that statement?

Or did you just make it up as you typed it?

[321BAR]

That is an outright fabrication. I do no such thing.

have to say krusty i dont think you like them japanese planes either...

[Krusty]

have to say krusty i dont think you like them japanese planes either...

That would be based on... what? Wmaker picking fights he can't support in the Ki-43 thread? Karnak picking fights in this thread based on another thread that has nothing to do with it? Nrshida and I have disagreed rather heatedly on the characterization of the A6M3 (back before we had it added to the game) so he may think I dislike it. In fact I enjoy the Japanese aircraft, and like reading about them and the history behind them. That doesn't seem to matter all that much in this thread though. The only person staying on track was Charge.

Charge, as WMaker pointed out I glossed over your response, and sorry for that. No specific source but it has been tied to diminishing pilot training or pilot standards late in the war in a small handful of places. I believe it has also been mentioned in a discussion on these very forums many years back (this is NOT the first time auto flaps on the N1K2 have been brought up). No one single source, and a general impression backed up by the words from my previous reply.

Also, if you're interested in the mechanism, look on these forums. I know the search function only half-works, but somebody spelled out the exact method the mercury switch used and how it worked and all that stuff. I think they had diagrams and drawings showing it also. This was a number of years ago.

[Karnak]

Nothing I have ever read has suggested, or even hinted, that it had anything to do with compensating for green pilots, Krusty.  Everything states it was intended to increase the maneuverability of the aircraft.  The aircraft was pushed by a veteran pilot, though Saburo Sakai says the guy wasn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

You wholly made up your claim.  Admit it and back down.

[Wmaker]

Wmaker picking fights he can't support in the Ki-43 thread?

I'm not picking fights, I'm correcting your factual errors. And it's the other way around as it always has been with you. You just babble incoherently, I back up everything I post with sources.

[nrshida]

Krusty we argued about the Ki-84 twice and the Ki-100 once. It was someone else about the A6M3, roll rates I believe was the point in question there? 

Anyway, please take it from someone who isn't trying to burn you or humiliate or embarrass you, but you really do come across more often than not as someone who thinks they are the absolute expert and that when people disagree with you they are wrong because you know differently / better. When pressed for sources you often decline to supply them or cite Websites that support your beliefs. Even when people are citing references from several different literary sources.

You do tend to show up on every Japanese plane discussion and do your thing. Perhaps you do this with everything, I don't know, I do not follow every thread.

I'm not going to berate you because I know you WWII aircraft are a passion of yours and you read a lot etcetera. I would suggest to you, respectfully, that you should listen to people more and check their claims which are often validated before you get insistent and belligerent.

The academic method is probably best, distinguish between known facts and 'feelings' or 'impressions' formed containing assumptions and so on. You cannot build anything on quicksand.

Please consider what I have said in the spirit it was intended.

 
 

[Charge]

"I know the search function only half-works, but somebody spelled out the exact method the mercury switch used and how it worked and all that stuff."

Well, since you mentioned it I recall such posts but could only find these:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,120633.75.html

(http://www.jamesreese.org/hangarflying/Issue6.htm)  

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,194854.15.html

The other talks about AoA and the other about G loading which is more logical to me.

-C+

[PJ_Godzilla]

I call highjack. This was my thread until some clowns got in here and commenced to chucking firebombs and falling down on the lawn in an effort to get me locked out and otherwise persecuted (this cross be's heavy). Beyond that, I'll let what appears to be a very old and gnarly sleeping dawg lie. Have at it - but please find a different ring in the circus for this particular klownshow, one where I can watch and get all cotton-candy sticky as I chuckle 'til I lose control of various bodily functions (yeehaw).  Otherwise, Charge's second link on 38 tactical advice was fascinating, but, man, them echeloned Nat-Zee pee-foe-teez look really scary.

What this thread needs is better data on the turn impact of the auto-deploying flaps. Ideally, an A:B comparison. Sadly,  I doubt any such exist, though it could be tested virtually with a manual deployment. Of course, what we'd really need is someone like BadBoy, KING OF ALL THAT IS VIRTUAL ACM-RELATED (PBUH), to develop E-M envelopes for the N1K2 with and without.

On a side note, I note that the 38 tactical advice bit recommended opening the intercoolers up at low (best climb) speed - where the drag penalty wouldn't hurt you as much as the power increase would help. I don't fly the 38 much but doubt we have manual control on the ic inlet setting. These are the kinds of things I'd like to see enriching our models. Why? It's not that I think they'll benefit me right now, but they would serve to help differentiate the aficionado from the amateur. Likewise, we'd see the impact of those a/c with automated systems like the bespoke on the N1K2 and the vaunted d-9's "computer" for pilots less inclined to get "busy" in the cockpit. 

[nrshida]

Sometimes this happens Godzilla, because the data is now very old and was scarce to begin with, then people start adding in opinion with fact and it starts to get a bit messy and all about reputation and into fierce debate about the tiny details: 'No the flap switch was red', 'No the flap switch was blue', etc.

I think it was a very good post & the flaps should be modelled as they were on the real aircraft. Note the dates, however, of those other posts about suggested changes to the flaps.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Sometimes this happens Godzilla, because the data is now very old and was scarce to begin with, then people start adding in opinion with fact and it starts to get a bit messy and all about reputation and into fierce debate about the tiny details: 'No the flap switch was red', 'No the flap switch was blue', etc.

I think it was a very good post & the flaps should be modelled as they were on the real aircraft. Note the dates, however, of those other posts about suggested changes to the flaps.

I understand and have been around this forum long enough to know that you are entirely correct. I'm only half annoyed anyway. It's always kind of funny watching these guys go at it. I also like the fact that they argue about the credibility of their assertions. That's a pretty good place to focus and a noble goal. Christopher Hitchens, known to turn a phrase, said that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I'd add a corollary about that which is asserted with anecdotal evidence as well.