P-47 flaps

[hitech]

so the bolded text "...implementing the pilot manual flap speed limitations" directly quoted from that discusson wasn't you?    maybe i misinterpreted the way it was written.

As I said I may be wrong, I hadn't read the 2nd part.

HiTech

[colmbo]

The dangers involved in deploying flaps in hard maneuvers are not well represented in the flight model.

What are these dangers you speak of?  I've stuck the flaps out on a lot of airplanes over the years and never really considered it a hazardous thing to do.

[bozon]

What are these dangers you speak of?  I've stuck the flaps out on a lot of airplanes over the years and never really considered it a hazardous thing to do.

did you deploy them and then try a 5G turn? Some flaps had sort of a spring loaded auto-retract. Ask the dedicated P-38 drivers in the game what happens when their flaps auto retract in a high G turn. The other thing I was referring to are stalls and spins regardless of flaps - we have no fear of them in the game, they are super easy to handle, while if they were feared as in real life pilots would be a little reluctant to try high speed stalls or deep stalls. The speed limits in manuals refer to a level-wings, 1G or slightly less flight which (taking a wild guess here) is how you used flaps.

[gyrene81]

did you deploy them and then try a 5G turn? Some flaps had sort of a spring loaded auto-retract. Ask the dedicated P-38 drivers in the game what happens when their flaps auto retract in a high G turn. The other thing I was referring to are stalls and spins regardless of flaps - we have no fear of them in the game, they are super easy to handle, while if they were feared as in real life pilots would be a little reluctant to try high speed stalls or deep stalls. The speed limits in manuals refer to a level-wings, 1G or slightly less flight which (taking a wild guess here) is how you used flaps.

you do know the auto retract function on the flaps in ah is not what actually happens in reality right? in toonville the flaps don't auto retract under g load on any airplane, there are pre-programmed speeds that dictate what angle of flap deflection is possible to deploy that's all. if you're referencing the "blow back" mechanism referenced in some u.s. fighter manuals, my understanding is they were designed to prevent damage to the flaps at high speeds, nothing to do with high g maneuvers.

stalls can happen at high or low speeds and flaps don't always have anything to do with when they will occur. excessive aileron force at high speed with full power can cause a stall, at least that's one of the cautions in some pilot manuals. i do it a lot with 109s. low speed stalls generally occur at very low speeds and can occur in level flight or in a maneuver, adding power and returning to level flight usually allows recovery.

[colmbo]

did you deploy them and then try a 5G turn? Some flaps had sort of a spring loaded auto-retract. Ask the dedicated P-38 drivers in the game what happens when their flaps auto retract in a high G turn. The other thing I was referring to are stalls and spins regardless of flaps - we have no fear of them in the game, they are super easy to handle, while if they were feared as in real life pilots would be a little reluctant to try high speed stalls or deep stalls. The speed limits in manuals refer to a level-wings, 1G or slightly less flight which (taking a wild guess here) is how you used flaps.

I've had flaps auto retract several times in game, other than hearing the flap sound I haven't notice anything exciting happening, can't remember if I've done it in a P-38 in game.

I don't "fear" stalls/spins in my real life flying.  I do respect that corner of the envelope.  It is not uncommon to pull to buffet when fighting an airplane, it is a corner of the envelope to be exploited, not feared.

G load doesn't do anything to the flaps.  Some aircraft are G limited with flaps deployed but again, that isn't because of an issue with the flaps.

Do you have any real-life flight experience?

[colmbo]

excessive aileron force at high speed with full power can cause a stall, at least that's one of the cautions in some pilot manuals.

Can you expound on that some?  The stall occurs due to excessive angle of attack, the aileron wouldn't change AOA except perhaps in the regard of the roll causing a higher AOA on the descending wing.

Now near stall if you try to pick a wing up with aileron you can cause a stall.  The increased camber of the drooped aileron allows that section to stall at a slightly lower aoa than the rest of the wing.  Do that in a B-17 and you get to look "up" at the ground, same with many aircraft of that era.

[Stoney]

ok, so look at the documentation...the easiest documentation to find is pilot handbooks, neither the u.s. or the luftwaffe manuals state anything about combat flaps, but they do have specifics about maximum safe speeds and safe take-off/landing procedures. so in the absence of information, do what?

There is documentation in U.S. manuals about the use of combat/maneuvering flaps.

[gyrene81]

Can you expound on that some?  The stall occurs due to excessive angle of attack, the aileron wouldn't change AOA except perhaps in the regard of the roll causing a higher AOA on the descending wing.

sorry colmbo, i meant elevator force not aileron...complete misquote on my part.

There is documentation in U.S. manuals about the use of combat/maneuvering flaps.

would you happen to know which ones? it's not in any of the manuals i have for p-39, p-40, p-47 or f4u.

[Stoney]

P-38 manual in the AH Wiki has information on maneuvering flaps.  Nothing in the P-47 manuals that I know of.  I think the P-51 manual touches on it as well, but I'd have to go back through it to find it. 

[mtnman]

ok, so look at the documentation...the easiest documentation to find is pilot handbooks, neither the u.s. or the luftwaffe manuals state anything about combat flaps, but they do have specifics about maximum safe speeds and safe take-off/landing procedures. so in the absence of information, do what?

There is documentation in U.S. manuals about the use of combat/maneuvering flaps.

would you happen to know which ones? it's not in any of the manuals i have for p-39, p-40, p-47 or f4u.

My F4U Corsair manual has information on combat flaps. 

It begins by mentioning that the flaps can be moved in 10 degree steps to "FULL DOWN" 50 degrees.

It then describes the "blow up" system which is set mechanically so that at full flaps and in level flight the flaps will begin to "blow up" at 90-110 kts indicated.  At lesser flap settings, the blow up speeds will be greater.  As speed decreases the flaps will return to the original setting.

There's a paragraph that reads-

"NOTE
The landing (and maneuver) flap control shall not be placed in position for lowering flaps at speeds in excess of 200kts even though the flaps are protected by an overload release mechanism.  If the flap release mechanism is not in operation, the restricted speed with flaps open varies from 130kts with flaps deflected 50 degrees to 200kts with flaps deflected 20 degrees."

Then-
"The flaps are also designed for use in maneuvering the plane in combat.  With typical maneuvering flap deflections of 20 degrees or less (see Section II, paragraph 15, b) the airplane may be maneuvered at equivilant limiting "flaps up" accelerations up to 200 kts."

Section II, 15, b reads-
"MANEUVER FLAPS- The wing flaps have been designed for possible use in maneuvering.  The flaps may be used to increase lift and thereby decrease the radius of turns at low speeds.  The flaps are also helpful in increasing the drag of the airplane so that it may be quickly decelerated to the optimum speed for a short radius turn.  In general, flap deflections of 20 degrees or less will be most helpful in improving maneuverability.  therefore a setting of 20 degrees has been established as the "maneuver flap" condition."

The "20 degrees" idea does factor in very closely to AH in-game flap use as well.  30 degrees is arguably helpful, but 40-50 degrees hurts more than it helps.

[gyrene81]

mtnman, you are proof as to why it is better to have more than one set of eyes looking at something. the f4u manual i have is a british repro of the models 1-4 and it has a little blurb about maneuver flaps of up to 20 degress at 200 knots in the basic flight section. thank you.

now i have to wonder why just the f4u and p-38 manuals have specific information on maneuver flaps. the p-40 manuals i have don't mention maneuvering with flaps, and i haven't found any reference to them in the one p-47 manual i've read so far.

makes one wonder if the u.s. was the only country to consider the use of flaps in aerial combat maneuvering considering the fact that several countries had been at war at least 3 years prior to u.s. involvement with supposedly advanced aircraft and combat experienced pilots. that sort of information isn't always in the pilot manuals, considering the different methods and aircraft used to train pilots at the time.

[Stoney]

As heavy as the U.S. aircraft were, especially compared to the Axis aircraft early in the war, I think it follows.  Its not like the Japanese, British, or Germans needed to develop techniques for combat flaps since their aircraft turned well without them.

[Shane]

As heavy as the U.S. aircraft were, especially compared to the Axis aircraft early in the war, I think it follows.  Its not like the Japanese, British, or Germans needed to develop techniques for combat flaps since their aircraft turned well without them.

they approached it differently with butterfly flaps (oscar, frank, tojo) or slats on the leading edge (109's, lala's)

once germany lost strategic air superiority their design focus became one more of speed and guns. japan was already going that way, as was the US via fowler flaps (38's). i can't really opine on the VVS tactics or designs.

[LThunderpocket]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmcDue6Q7Dg&feature=related

if I recall,they talk about dive breaks and using flaps during combat.there are 4 parts of this video(ths one being the 2nd)

[colmbo]

the p-40 manuals i have don't mention maneuvering with flaps

The P-40 had split flaps, not a great flap for increasing lift, more drag than anything else.  Perhaps that is why using them as combat flaps isn't noted.