Standardize Defensive Gunners on Bombers

[VonKost]

I dunno that bombers are easier than fighters.  They require a different approach that's more about mission planning to ensure success.  Plan well and it's a milk run.  Plan poorly and you're a big fat target.

I have to admit I'm not a big fan of bombers, and a big reason is that I find it annoying to try to jump around all the turret positions.  I'd find that to be true even if they were standardized.  What I'd really like to see is auto gunners with a bunch of dynamic parameters, so that you can designate priority targets (in outside view mode for example), set engagement ranges, ammo conservation, etc (in flight).  I'd also like the ability to over-ride the auto-gunners (preferably with standardized or programmable position keys) to do it myself.  I really like the bombsight model (and BTW, didn't you used to have to click the map to enter the target altitude?  What happened to that?  It was cool.)  I really don't like having to jump out of the crosshairs to go fight off someone, thereby totally ruining the drop.  This moves out of unrealistic into silly, and out of silly into just annoying.

And - while I'm wishing for bombers to be cooler - I'd wish for my virtual gunners to give virtual fighter calls.  "109, ten o'clock high, diving."  Now THAT would be keen.  Hell - HTC - I'll code that myself for you, if you want it.

Oooooo!  And incendiaries!  Really effective against towns, less so against bases, barely at all against ships!  Requires yet a bit more in terms of mission planning.

OK, I'm done.

Some cool ideas! Bring on the incendiaries! and let the towns burn while the fire spreads and eventually eats other buildings. Is wind modeled? We have those great big towns and we have B-29s, now all we need is night raids and a way to burn them all down! 

[Jayhawk]

I was kind of just going to agree to disagree, but you seem to have a belief that bombers are just too easy and the turret positions should remain unchanged simply because it's a step that may make bombers more difficult.  As Stellaris said, bombers are just different.  Bombers take a specific set of skills that are different than fighters, but I will concede that mastering bombing is easier than mastering fighters, due partly to the fact that so many people fly fighters.  Do you think memorizing gunner positions is the same skill and learning a fighter?  It's not that it's hard, it's that it's trivial.  Anyway, I'm just going to respond to some of your points in that post.

What exactly are these people doing in their bomber's that they can't figure out the keys well in advance? The point isn't the keys, it's the need to know your aircraft. Bombers are different from fighters and there by have a different need IE learn your plane, but the argument here is: well it makes it easier for the person to fly 5 sectors and not pay attention to their aircraft. Well you can do this a fighter you might say. This may be true, but a bomber's job is not to fight and require a need for for the pilot to learn about wep/dive speed/ACMs etc etc. It requires the pilot to learn to read their E6B, press and hold U and Y keys and use F6 mode to find a target. Beyond that.. not much. Bombers are easier to learn, for the most part, than fighters and yet people are trying to make them easier because people don't want to do something. I mean heck, you can even get a second set of eyes into a bomber and that second set of eyes can fire at something independent of the first set of eyes. It also gives you a massive amount of fire power and a steady gun platform.

One who flies bombers a lot does more than just that.  A good pilot usually has a well planned route in and out of target even before taking off.  On long missions it's not uncommon to adjust manifold and rpm to cruise to target.  Working your manifold and rpm, even by individual engine, can become tedious and complicated when you're being chased by cons and are running low on fuel.  Altitude is your friend, and if you drop to low to land, you'll quickly be eaten up.  Bombers like the B-29 may require a special touch because of their speed, planning out your route and allowing for room to allow your speed to settle out takes some practice, especially if you're doing it from 30,000ft.  Now try to do all that while 47s and 152s are buzzing by.  You see a con coming from your high 3 o' clock, you know you need to go to your top turret, I know on a B-17 I'd hit 3, what is it on a B-29?  I can't remember now.  What if I saw a con diving in on my in a fighter, any fighter, and I wanted to hit my flaps and break.  Do you know what key it is?  Sure, same one on every aircraft.  My point is, there are differences in bombers, and it does take skill to learn your plane, but why must something trivial like memorizing different gun positions be "skill"?

Do away with the damage read out because it's in the same corner as the gun positions (we've already said it's too hard for pilots to look at this, so they don't need the damage there.. it might distract them) and remove anything people don't need or find  inconvenient. GV's for example. People don't like the new auto trans we got. Why not?? They can think less, it's a simpler system and all that jazz, so everyone must be in love with it and there fore if anyone is a loud disenter, they must be told why they are wrong.

I'm honestly not sure what this rant is about.

Engines are hard too. Not many people know how to control all the engines independently of one another, and there are no lists of information for this that the pilot can get ahold of, yet this is okay...

Again, not sure what your point is with this paragraph.

Also, I'm sure that there must have been a massive brain fart at HTC for not having thought of this in the last 12 or so years. I mean, it's so simple it's almost hard to believe they haven't put it in yet each time they've put in a new bomber!! Silly HTC.

HTC is not quick to change anything.  Bombers, like all other aircraft, were introduced one by one.  I would imagine that they simply don't want to change those that people already know, there'd be a lot of complaining the first few months as people adjusted to the difference.  A good alternative to that would be making the gun positions programmable so people can simply set them how they want.

I'll borrow this from another thread currently going... People have no clue about dive flaps, recovery flaps or dive breaks on most airgraft they use, but they are all the same key.. not really. A P51D's Dive flaps are also the first notch of flaps, so no 'Shift C' The P38 has a recovery set of flaps that require Shift C, but alot of people assume this is a dive break, not a recovery flap... Yet it's Shift c AND the light says Dive Flaps. So, since we are fixing everything to be easy so people have more fun and time.. fix this! It has to be standardized, or it's hard.

To me, this seems like apples and oranges.  Not a similar issue and not comparable.

As for the button configuration.. If I'm in an aircraft, say the A20, and I want to hit 1 and 2 to switch back and forth because they are right next to each other because it's the only gun turret and the pilot... well no more. Also, the 110 and the like MUST be remapped because it's hard to remember that it;s not a ball turret so it must be something other than 2. It doesn't matter if people use it regularly, it's the fact it's too hard to remember and that must be catered to before other things.

Sarcastic rant.  No one is asking to be catered to.  I'm going to say it again, switching gunner positions isn't a matter of skill, it's trivial memorization, especially when you think about what it is suppose to represent on a real aircraft.  Catering to us would be allowing us to spawn 20,000ft in the air so we don't have to spend so much time on climb out.

Overall, we're just not going to see this on the same level.  For you, it's an issue of learning your aircraft, for me, it's an issue of memorizing random numbers.  I can assure you that for me, it's not coming from an issue of laziness.  My support comes from experience, knowing I want to to move from the top turret to the tail turret (know your SA) but jumping to the nose instead.  I highly doubt HTC will change this anytime soon, but I still support the idea.

 

[SEseph]

learn  [lurn] verb, learned [lurnd] learnt, learn·ing. –verb (used with object)
1. to acquire knowledge of or skill in by study, instruction, or experience
2. to become informed of or acquainted with; ascertain
3. to memorize: He learned the poem so he could recite it at the dinner.

skill [skil] –noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience

Do you think memorizing gunner positions is [...] skill[...]? Yes, see above  It's not that it's hard, it's that it's trivial. See paragraph 3

 For you, it's an issue of learning your aircraft, for me, it's an issue of memorizing random numbers. I highly doubt HTC will change this anytime soon, but I still support the idea.

Why is it so wrong for me to desire people pay attention? You didn't hold a high view of my last post because, it would seem, you felt it irrelevant to the situation for the most part, but I was pointing out items that lead to skill in all planes. In a fighter if you manage your E well, you have a better chance low than a low and slow fighter with minimal E. Bombers who don't respect laws such as this will die the same as a fighter and vise versa.

If you are in a B-17 lets say and you are in your tail gun fending off a fighter that has shot your front, top and right turret's out and in general has hurt you, but he's smoking so we know it will come down to these final seconds. Suddenly he fires a burst that knocks out your tail turret as he pulls to your high left. Well, logically you should jump to your left waist turret to kill the evil fighter because you know from the tracer fire that your top turret is down. So you do, you jump into that left waist turret fast as anything because you had everything standardized and it's just in time to see him making a run on your left. You line him up, pull your trigger confident in your kill only to see 2 tracers leave the gun and then silence; except for the enemy fighter's rounds ripping holes in you and setting you ablaze.

If you had looked at your ammo counter, you would have known that would happen, but you didn't because you felt certain in your standardization of keys to be quick. Someone might think that makes no sense, why wouldn't you look at the ammo counter on your guns? After all, it is displayed with every gun and it tells which turrets are even still functional by the red/green color. Well there in lies the problem, you see, because the buttons associated with every turret are right there as well. So, basically, if you're not paying attention now, it's not for something being hard/easy/trivial/vital, it's because you didn't pay enough attention to begin with.

Alot of pilots jump into a gun position anyway shortly after takeoff so they can fly with their rudder and/or look around without accidentally turning off auto pilot. Look at the guns while you're there. Pick a starting turret, typically I choose the nose because it's easiest for me to pilot from and memorize your location. Standard flight prep, just like a map or ammo load out. In the heat of battle, I don't want to worry about forgetting anything because battle is not the time to second guess. You can't claim proficiency if you're lacking such a basic skill as flight preparedness.. IE knowing your plane.

Attention to detail can save your life, even in a cartoon.

BUT What ever HTC does, I'll still play. As I'm sure will you if it stays the same. 

[Raptor05121]

+1

[Penguin]

learn  [lurn] verb, learned [lurnd] learnt, learn·ing. –verb (used with object)
1. to acquire knowledge of or skill in by study, instruction, or experience
2. to become informed of or acquainted with; ascertain
3. to memorize: He learned the poem so he could recite it at the dinner.

skill [skil] –noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience

Why is it so wrong for me to desire people pay attention? You didn't hold a high view of my last post because, it would seem, you felt it irrelevant to the situation for the most part, but I was pointing out items that lead to skill in all planes. In a fighter if you manage your E well, you have a better chance low than a low and slow fighter with minimal E. Bombers who don't respect laws such as this will die the same as a fighter and vise versa.

If you are in a B-17 lets say and you are in your tail gun fending off a fighter that has shot your front, top and right turret's out and in general has hurt you, but he's smoking so we know it will come down to these final seconds. Suddenly he fires a burst that knocks out your tail turret as he pulls to your high left. Well, logically you should jump to your left waist turret to kill the evil fighter because you know from the tracer fire that your top turret is down. So you do, you jump into that left waist turret fast as anything because you had everything standardized and it's just in time to see him making a run on your left. You line him up, pull your trigger confident in your kill only to see 2 tracers leave the gun and then silence; except for the enemy fighter's rounds ripping holes in you and setting you ablaze.

If you had looked at your ammo counter, you would have known that would happen, but you didn't because you felt certain in your standardization of keys to be quick. Someone might think that makes no sense, why wouldn't you look at the ammo counter on your guns? After all, it is displayed with every gun and it tells which turrets are even still functional by the red/green color. Well there in lies the problem, you see, because the buttons associated with every turret are right there as well. So, basically, if you're not paying attention now, it's not for something being hard/easy/trivial/vital, it's because you didn't pay enough attention to begin with.

Alot of pilots jump into a gun position anyway shortly after takeoff so they can fly with their rudder and/or look around without accidentally turning off auto pilot. Look at the guns while you're there. Pick a starting turret, typically I choose the nose because it's easiest for me to pilot from and memorize your location. Standard flight prep, just like a map or ammo load out. In the heat of battle, I don't want to worry about forgetting anything because battle is not the time to second guess. You can't claim proficiency if you're lacking such a basic skill as flight preparedness.. IE knowing your plane.

Attention to detail can save your life, even in a cartoon.

BUT What ever HTC does, I'll still play. As I'm sure will you if it stays the same. 

I'd like to emphasize something, here, and it's crucial.  The whole system of teleporting between gun positions is about as gamey as it gets.  The point is not for it to be realistic, but to be useful, quick and fun.  Having to memorize list after list of random number-word associations is not fun at all.  You'd be quick to point out, "learn your aircraft".  However, there are almost twenty aircraft with gunner positions in the game.  That's not learning "your" aircraft, that's learning a boatload of them.

Furthermore, your example with definitions is in fact self contradictory, as one can clearly see that learning gunner positions is not skill, but rather learning.  Even if it were 'skill', it would be one that did not focus on combat whatsoever, but rather the manipulation of a gamey teleportation system that does not even exist in the modern day. 

Finally, you've brought up a lack of attention paid to one's aircraft during combat.  This is not the case.  Having to check through a list is completely different from keeping track of an ammo count.  Also, if running out of ammunition is a problem, then it lies not in attention paid, but in a lack of gunnery skills and luck.  I'd wager that the odds of running out of ammo for a shot that could only be accomplished by a single gun and no other is far, far lower than forgetting which button to press to teleport.

As a parting statement, aerial combat is the bread and butter of AH2.  Do you really want to require players to remember random number strings in order to enjoy the game for what it is?

-Penguin

[guncrasher]

seseph not all of us have the skill to do around 10-15 flights a month just to rank low like you do.

semp

[Stellaris]

And so far as gamey goes - what about the inability to cross-load ammunition between turrets, and carry ammunition beyond that actually loaded into the guns?  It's ridiculous to have the tail guns be out of ammo without the waist gunners tossing some ammo cans back there.  This is a standard part of crew duties.

A virtual crew would go a long way to help realism.

[SmokinLoon]

And so far as gamey goes - what about the inability to cross-load ammunition between turrets, and carry ammunition beyond that actually loaded into the guns?  It's ridiculous to have the tail guns be out of ammo without the waist gunners tossing some ammo cans back there.  This is a standard part of crew duties.

A virtual crew would go a long way to help realism.

and it would go a long way to allow more gaming the game.  In AH, the waist and front gunners would simply ferry their ammo to the rear, top, and ball turrets on a whim.  During the real deal, in the heat of a fighter attack on a bomber formation I'd be willing to bet very little of any ammo was shifted about.  Once the threat level was reduced, then maybe.  But leaving a defensive gun unmanned while taking fire was not a good thing.  I dont have any hard evidence of that, but SOP would lend towards not leaving guns unmanned.  Obviously, the CO would/could break that if the situation was dire enough.   

[guncrasher]

it was nearly impossible to transfer ammo between gunners.  this has been discussed to death before.  of course this is not rl and it could just be easily done, then again, we kindda like the realistic gamey part of it.

semp

[Stellaris]

I beg to differ.  Transferring ammo between the waist guns in a B17 is a matter of shoving the can across the floor with your foot.  Transferring ammo between other positions in other aircraft may range from easy to impossible - I don't know.  However even if it's difficult, if it makes sense it'll get done.  Crossloading ammunition between tank turrets is difficult, but it gets done as a matter of SOP every time a tank squadron hits a lager.  And there's no reason a virtual crew has to do things instantaneously, or that ordering a crossload can't take your virtual crew away from their virtual guns.
 

[guncrasher]

I beg to differ.  Transferring ammo between the waist guns in a B17 is a matter of shoving the can across the floor with your foot.  Transferring ammo between other positions in other aircraft may range from easy to impossible - I don't know.  However even if it's difficult, if it makes sense it'll get done.  Crossloading ammunition between tank turrets is difficult, but it gets done as a matter of SOP every time a tank squadron hits a lager.  And there's no reason a virtual crew has to do things instantaneously, or that ordering a crossload can't take your virtual crew away from their virtual guns.
 

I dont think they had ammo cans in most bombers like you see in the movies. google pictures of b17's and you will see how the mg's ammo was fed.   in the turrets it was impossible to reload or even clear a jam since you couldnt get to the mg itself while in the air.

I totally understand the frustration of running out of ammo in the tail position while the nose and waist positions still have hundreds of rounds, specially like in the lancaster where the tail has like 5 bullets while the nose has billions of unused bullets.  but oh well that's life.

semp

[SEseph]

seseph not all of us have the skill to do around 10-15 flights a month just to rank low like you do.

semp

I do that so I can have a low score for controlling carriers. Check back over the course of a few years and look at my bombing stats and you'll see a ton more sorties with even better ranking. I just don't have time to run goons and not get a take, so I boost it up with massive damage in a few runs. I'll run about 30-45 sorties for you this month and come out around the same spot if it will help you feel more comfortable about listening to my position.

I have no problem saying I do it for score either, because I did my time in bombers. Most people I've flown bombers with can tell you I'm not exactly a rookie with it. I just don't want to do it anymore and I hate people falling asleep at the CV wheel.

I'd like to emphasize something, here, and it's crucial.  The whole system of teleporting between gun positions is about as gamey as it gets.  The point is not for it to be realistic, but to be useful, quick and fun.  Having to memorize list after list of random number-word associations is not fun at all.  You'd be quick to point out, "learn your aircraft".  However, there are almost twenty aircraft with gunner positions in the game.  That's not learning "your" aircraft, that's learning a boatload of them. Fighters have even more aircraft to learn and most of those aircraft with gunners are all consolidated into the first few keys. Never do you have to jump from 1 to 4 and not have an option of 2 or 3. You also can only fly one aircraft at a time, to which most players find their favorite and don't fly all 20 every month.

Furthermore, your example with definitions is in fact self contradictory, as one can clearly see that learning gunner positions is not skill, but rather learning. Skill is having an ability, that comes from ones knowledge. Paying attention because you know what happens if you don't, though, I guess is an exception to the rule. Even if it were 'skill', it would be one that did not focus on combat whatsoever, but rather the manipulation of a gamey teleportation system that does not even exist in the modern day. Neither do instant repairs/rearms for vehicles, 30 second rearm on planes or ability to just land in a tower when at 30,000ft and you type .ef. So we should object because that's a gamey aspect as well. I wonder how many people use that and don't object? I expect people to do what others would have to do if this were changed... ADAPT and USE SKILL by LEARNING behaviors and strategies for survival. Maybe the other side should learn NOW before it is changed in case it NEVER gets changed. If it IS changed, then a different set of players would be forced to adapt. Either way, it changes nothing other than the group who must adapt. People still will be required to learn the numbers and more so the gunnery spots of every aircraft because now the numbers go with a set spot. If you don't know your aircraft, why would changing it help? You still have to know it and the numbers. Just a different reasoning behind the differing logic.

ma·nip·u·late [muh-nip-yuh-leyt]–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
1. to manage or influence skillfully
2. to handle, manage, or use, especially with skill, in some process of treatment or performance
3. to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage. 

Finally, you've brought up a lack of attention paid to one's aircraft during combat.  This is not the case.  Having to check through a list is completely different from keeping track of an ammo count. Don't look at your damage list when in combat then. Anyone who does proves this wrong. It's a list, it's constantly changing, and you have to check it/turn it on then either memorize the damage (unless fully visible, IE oil) or act on it immediately (such as draining the damaged fuel tank first). Not to mention it's in the EXACT same spot as the list of gunnery positions. If anyone does this, then they are doing what I am saying they should be doing for the gunner positions. If you claim that you can turn around and find the damage without a list, just remember that when you turn around, you must now remember the information you just obtained and take it into account for your flight. Just like gunnery positions. Even by accident you're bound to learn the positions simply using them. I think the term is 'practice.'

You must LEARN to use SKILLS in order to better MANIPLUATE your chances of success.

It's late, I apologize for any horrible grammar/spelling errors.

[RTHolmes]

+1

Ive wanted this for a while now, I dont usually do alot of buff sorties but I like to fly different types. very annoying getting shot down because I'm trying to remember/look at the list when I should be tracking and shooting at the fighters.

gaps arent a problem at all, but I'd rather see:

1 Cockpit
2 Nose
3 Top
4 Rear
5 Belly
6 Left
7 Right

just seems more natural to start at the front and work back over the top then back under.

[Rob52240]

While we're at it, can we make a key for the co-pilot's seat that would allow you to use rudders without turning off the autopilot?

[SEseph]

While we're at it, can we make a key for the co-pilot's seat that would allow you to use rudders without turning off the autopilot?

Sit in the nose and do that now, or top/ball. Or are you meaning a whole new spot so you can see your instrumentation while flying with pedals? THAT I could get behind.