Author Topic: Freakin poison ivy  (Read 3198 times)

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2011, 08:54:44 PM »
shall we take it to PM? no reaso nto hijack further...
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2011, 09:04:48 PM »
No, absolutely not. You're making an induction yourself. You THINK you know what was going through my head when I wrote this.

First, as for "name calling", it was never intended as diminutive. Fine, I'll call you Penguin. I'm really not sure why you care. People refer to me as 'zilla frequently. I don't take it as diminutive - even though it's a modification.

Let me explain wh yI see no self-contradiction and why I think you're making an induction yourself:

1. My evaluation of a person's past behavior, as manifested outwardly, is for the purpose of deciding whether they are a desirable associate. I'd draw sharp distinction between this and "judging the person as good/bad". After all, have you never deemed someone an undesireable associate yet also an entirely good and worthy person?

2. Even a judgment of bad behavior need not imply bad person. You seem to be making that equation. I am not interested in the extrapolation, just choosing associates.

The way it might work in practice is that you look at someone and get an intuitive read based on cues. Honestly, in most cases, my intuitive read is pretty neutral. the vast majority of people neither interest nor repel me. However, let's say I see a woman smoking, then hear her speak in a gravelly voice. I might say, that's kind of gross - and it is. Yet I recognize that doesn't means he's a bad person or even that I think she is. However, it might mean that I choose not to associate -and that was the nature of my guidance - choosing an assoicate. It had NOTHING t odo with evaluating the person as good/bad. That was the direction you took us. I had nothing to say on that matter until you attemped to put words in my mouth.

Now, I'll admit, in the case of a parolee, I might also be included to dismiss the person as a miscreant. Admittedly, that's a fundamental judgment. However, it's also exceptional. 

So, you see, my "switch" was not one at all. I discussed guidance for choosing your company. you changed it to "rules of judgment". I told you my own.

If that is the case, then, your point about the girls being 'undesirables' was that they were parolees?  That does seem to make a bit more sense then, seeing a parolee shotgunning beer after beer at a bar while smoking is enough to put anyone off.

The way you said it seemed was extreemly judgemental, though.  I mean, with the defamatory portmanteau and calling them tramps, along with anecdotes about your wife laughing at them, it seemed like you were bent on caricturing them (for better or worse) as woebegone drunkard trolls (and not the internet kind).

That is an interesting meta-argument, but wouldn't all replies to posts then be inductions?

Now, as a following corollary and for the sake of the argument, let's ask you what you've got against someone discrimating enough to consciously choose their associates. Your reaction to such a concept seems viscerally negative, dare I say, excessively judgmental (and by transit, therefore also hypocritical)?

Yet I would ask you if you do not do the same yourself in choosing your friends? So why carry the pretense that such is bad or wrong?

You see, just because an La-7 can climb to 30k it doesn't... (and so on).

One additional point, beware the word "seem", for the chasm between seems and is often yawns. That's part of the reason I used it above. See if you can take advantage of it.

Otherwise, recognize I have not judged you a bad person for this entertaining exchange.

The idea that criticizing someone's approach to selecting company is judgement of their entire self is absurd, as it would make any conversation on the topic impossible.  In the direct sense, I have never made a comment about you, only your statements.

What do you mean by entertaining? :headscratch:

-Penguin

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2011, 09:19:36 PM »
What you'r epicking up was an intent to be provocative. But remember, I said "walk away". That's all about "no" on association.

You're entertaining because you're young enough that you can avoid mistakes. Remember: a smart guy learns from his own mistakes but a genius learns from the mistakes of others.

And it's shuffler's wife who laughs at 'em - though mine might too, I suppose.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2011, 09:28:29 PM »
What you'r epicking up was an intent to be provocative. But remember, I said "walk away". That's all about "no" on association.

You're entertaining because you're young enough that you can avoid mistakes. Remember: a smart guy learns from his own mistakes but a genius learns from the mistakes of others.

And it's shuffler's wife who laughs at 'em - though mine might too, I suppose.

It's late and I'm tired, do you mind providing a quote?

-Penguin

Offline AAJagerX

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #124 on: July 01, 2011, 01:08:30 AM »
EDIT: manners....

« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 03:37:58 AM by AAJagerX »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #125 on: July 01, 2011, 04:34:23 AM »
It's late and I'm tired, do you mind providing a quote?

-Penguin

It's early, not at all - but to which? Shuffler's post appears just up this thread a bit.

One other thing to which I meant to reply - yes, you are correct (per you last post) that "The idea that criticizing someone's approach to selecting company is judgement [sic] of their entire self is absurd".  My statement was intended to point out exactly that, thus underlining the distinction I was trying to draw via the time-honored debate method known as "reductio ad absurdum" (obviously, reduction to absurdity). Cast in such a light, what was originally couched in provocative and very negative-sounding language now "seems" a lot more ordinary and rational. Like I say, beware the way things "seem". You've clearly got some background in philosophy - use it, especially methods of logic, to conduct the drudgework of analysis to get past "seems". I contend you plug that word in as alias for an intuition that could be reliable, but not without more practice.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #126 on: July 01, 2011, 07:41:09 AM »
Additionally, Penguin, for a good examination of this topic couched in humor, I can recommend a book. It's Stephen Fry's most obscure but, imj, best book. It's called "the Hippopotamus". This is subtle and slippery subject matter but if you're interested, I can actually send you my old copy, which is only gathering dust.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #127 on: July 01, 2011, 09:31:27 AM »
It was midnight where I was from, and like my mom always said, never take candy (or anything for that matter) from strangers. ;)  If I need it, I can get one off Amazon (bookworm dad FTW :rock).  So in the end, what you were trying to say was that these parolee girls put you off because they wore tethers?  Ouch, that's harsh (unless other things such as drug use or barfights were involved).  You're right about the my use of the word 'seem', I've realized that I use it to mask leaps of logic via my dull intuition.

How do you older guys get so smart?  Is there any way not to become crotchety, jaded and prejudiced as a senior citizen?

-Penguin

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2011, 10:22:24 AM »

How do you older guys get so smart?  Is there any way not to become crotchety, jaded and prejudiced as a senior citizen?

-Penguin

It happens quite naturally as all the simplistic notions of youth get obliterated by hard lessons of experience. I'm ahead of the curve, since I'm not a Senior. Now tell me how a 13 y.o. with no education beyond middle school happens to come to know it all?

Unfair - I know. When I was your age I couldn't be told anything either. You will learn, and I hope not the hard way, that the company you choose will have consequences. If you choose to believe that people don't signal constantly and reliably, so be it. If you believe that people further down the road have learned nothing, then I guess you have no reason to engage them in dialog. 
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #129 on: July 01, 2011, 10:35:13 AM »
It happens quite naturally as all the simplistic notions of youth get obliterated by hard lessons of experience. I'm ahead of the curve, since I'm not a Senior. Now tell me how a 13 y.o. with no education beyond middle school happens to come to know it all?

Unfair - I know. When I was your age I couldn't be told anything either. You will learn, and I hope not the hard way, that the company you choose will have consequences. If you choose to believe that people don't signal constantly and reliably, so be it. If you believe that people further down the road have learned nothing, then I guess you have no reason to engage them in dialog. 

Simplistic as in naive or fundamentalist?  Both sound frightening.  I don't disagree that the company one keeps carries consequences, I'm arguing that not every single person who has done something wrong in their lifetime is a horrible person.

-Penguin

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #130 on: July 01, 2011, 10:43:49 AM »
Simplistic as in naive or fundamentalist?  Both sound frightening.  I don't disagree that the company one keeps carries consequences, I'm arguing that not every single person who has done something wrong in their lifetime is a horrible person.

-Penguin
but you see, there is always a chance of relapse on their wrong doings. change needs to come to the person, and then they need to continue associating with the right crowd to keep the change and not relapse. if you do heroin, go to rehab, come home sober but hang out with your dealers a year dfown the road, how likely do you think it is you wont start again?
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #131 on: July 01, 2011, 10:45:24 AM »
Simplistic as in naive or fundamentalist?  Both sound frightening.  I don't disagree that the company one keeps carries consequences, I'm arguing that not every single person who has done something wrong in their lifetime is a horrible person.

-Penguin

Clearly. If it were, we'd all be horrible. But go back to my analogy of the woman 30-year smoker. First, she's not a horrible person. Second, what's written in her gravelly voice is the practice of 30 years, not a furtive teenage puff.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #132 on: July 01, 2011, 10:47:06 AM »
but you see, there is always a chance of relapse on their wrong doings. change needs to come to the person, and then they need to continue associating with the right crowd to keep the change and not relapse. if you do heroin, go to rehab, come home sober but hang out with your dealers a year dfown the road, how likely do you think it is you wont start again?

That's entirely correct, imj, Masonz. The same man will do the same thing - and "same" here is defined by his behavior, which includes his associations. 
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #133 on: July 01, 2011, 10:49:25 AM »
justy one more thing i seen when i was 15, not with heroin, but with weed and a few of my buddies.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #134 on: July 01, 2011, 06:37:20 PM »
Why don't you guys just get a room.
 :huh
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