Author Topic: Pilot Reactions  (Read 2610 times)

Offline colmbo

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2011, 10:37:54 AM »
having flown high-performance gliders i can tell you that your head bobs and jigs alot.even just cranking over into a thermal your head will move a noticable amount.especialy in loops,barrel rolls,snap stalls and hitting turbulance.

A few videos of T-6 aerobatics  Check the aileron roll and barrell roll videos, good inside view of pilots head during the rolls.

If flown smoothly I haven't experienced being banged around in the cockpit much except on snap-rolls...at least not as the pilot.  It's kind of like driving a car, you think you're being real smooth but your passengers get slammed around since they are unable to anticipate your actions.  Turbulence being an exception, on a couple of flight I felt like a Super Ball thrown into a shower stall.
Columbo

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Offline LThunderpocket

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2011, 11:53:50 AM »
A few videos of T-6 aerobatics  Check the aileron roll and barrell roll videos, good inside view of pilots head during the rolls.

If flown smoothly I haven't experienced being banged around in the cockpit much except on snap-rolls...at least not as the pilot.  It's kind of like driving a car, you think you're being real smooth but your passengers get slammed around since they are unable to anticipate your actions.  Turbulence being an exception, on a couple of flight I felt like a Super Ball thrown into a shower stall.

ive rarely accualy hit my head on the glass.flew a PW6 yesterday and was only up for about 40 mins.forecast called for 800 fpm but i only could get into 1 thermal witch quickly turned to sink after goin back up to 5500 ft MSL.now,in the PW6 sometimes my head is up against the glass because im 6 foot 7.That is about the only time I hate being this big.

I suggested in the game that when u make a quick maneuver or turn etc that the pilots head would move and if a hard enough turn,he bumps his head on the canopy.it would have to be a heck of a snap roll or turning at 400 knots.thats just my 2 cents on the subject
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2011, 09:51:05 PM »
I agree with Colmbo on this one, if you are the pilot you should not notice anything. My record is +5.5/-2.0Gs and I never noticed my head moving (turbulence is an exception).
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline B-17

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »
Wait a minute... I tried some interesting maneuvers yesterday in a P-47-D-11, and whenever I pulled up, dove, or rolled quickly, my head bobbed off to the side a bit, so that the gunsight went off the reflector a bit. Is this what you mean?

Offline muzik

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2011, 05:29:04 PM »
The pilot is strapped to the plane and the body should not move. As the plane mostly pulls Gs up and down (not side to side like a car) the forces on the neck are up and down, when pulling Gs I don't remember ever having my neck squashed or extended.


Not all pilots in ww2 had the racing style shoulder harnesses used today. I believe the waste strap was more common by a vast majority.

Second only in coordinated flight are the G forces always in the vertical. Air combat is nearly impossible to maintain coordinated. As a matter of fact most of us use so much rudder in turn fights the pilots body would be glued to the side of his aircraft if it were real.
 
If it were a realistic view system, every time you rolled suddenly or snap rolled your entire virtual body would be slammed to the side. The same would happen every time you kicked your rudder hard.

To the OP, this sounds like a good idea. I think it would be great to see a little shaking or jarring going on when you take hits. It should probably also cause a reduction in energy. Good idea.

I can think of only three cases when something would happen to your vision: +/-Gs

If an explosive cannon shell goes off in the cockpit or possibly even behind the pilot armor, there could be such a change in air pressure in the cockpit it could cause blinking and temporary blurred vision at the least and shrapnel (even if it's only light particle debris) dispersal in a slightly more likely scenario.

Any serious jolt or unexpected noise usually causes a person to wince. Close flak shells should jolt your aircraft enough to cause your entire aircraft to be thrown a short distance and toss the pilot around as well.

Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline colmbo

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2011, 07:50:21 PM »


If it were a realistic view system, every time you rolled suddenly or snap rolled your entire virtual body would be slammed to the side. The same would happen every time you kicked your rudder hard.


Based on my experience that would not be realistic.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline MachFly

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2011, 11:19:29 PM »
Second only in coordinated flight are the G forces always in the vertical. Air combat is nearly impossible to maintain coordinated. As a matter of fact most of us use so much rudder in turn fights the pilots body would be glued to the side of his aircraft if it were real.

Could you elaborate on that a little more please. I don't know of any aircraft that is capable of pulling extreme Gs just with the use of the rudder.
If you ever get a chance to talk to any WWII pilots ask them how they used their rudder in combat. Sure some maneuvers require for your aircraft to be uncoordinated but most of the time you want to use enough rudder (not full rudder, but just enough for what ever you are doing). The reason most people in AH don't use rudder is because we don't have too many people receiving proper instructions on how to fly.
 
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If it were a realistic view system, every time you rolled suddenly or snap rolled your entire virtual body would be slammed to the side. The same would happen every time you kicked your rudder hard.

I'm going to have to disagree on that. Sometimes when your uncoordinated you do feel those forces pulling you to the side, but an aircraft is not a race car, it is simply incapable of generating such high side Gs to slam you into the wall.

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If an explosive cannon shell goes off in the cockpit or possibly even behind the pilot armor, there could be such a change in air pressure in the cockpit it could cause blinking and temporary blurred vision at the least and shrapnel (even if it's only light particle debris) dispersal in a slightly more likely scenario.

Any serious jolt or unexpected noise usually causes a person to wince. Close flak shells should jolt your aircraft enough to cause your entire aircraft to be thrown a short distance and toss the pilot around as well.

I'm not really familiar with how flak bursts effect air pressure, I mean I know the general idea but I don't know how significant that change in pressure would be. Would you know of any numbers to help us discuss whether or not the effect is significant enough to add it to AH?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 11:21:04 PM by MachFly »
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline muzik

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2011, 04:36:56 PM »
Let's make something clear right off the bat. A lot of factors will determine how much force a pilot will experience.

An aircraft's roll response and rudder authority play a large part. If an aircraft has excellent roll rate and response, then even a small amount of control movement might seem like you are yanking the stick. And the faster your aircraft is moving when this happens the more the response is to your controls. The same is true of the rudder. If it has a large surface, it will produce better response.

The pilots relation to the CG will have some effect as well.

You cannot compare a 190 to a Mustang. They will not throw a pilot around with the same force even if they do the same maneuver at the same speed. It will have similar results, but different Gs.

Based on my experience that would not be realistic.

What is your experience?

A snap roll is a violent maneuver and it can throw you around like a rag doll if you are not wearing a shoulder harness or your cockpit isn't skin tight. A normal roll, if done sharply will also throw you against the side of the aircraft but the intensity of force would depend on the roll response of the aircraft at any given speed. Neither are life threatening jolts, but strong enough I doubt there's a man alive that can sit up straight and keep his head or body still.

Shoulder harnesses weren't in all aircraft in ww2 so many did not have that additional stabilization and not all cockpits were as small as a 109 or Spitfire.

Could you elaborate on that a little more please. I don't know of any aircraft that is capable of pulling extreme Gs just with the use of the rudder.

I didnt say anything about pulling Gs with just the use of a rudder. Using the rudder doesn't increase or decrease the amount of Gs an aircraft pulls (unless you factor in drag which isn't relevant here.)

Using a rudder changes the direction of force. If a pilot is accelerating forward the he experiences force from front to back until acceleration stops. If he pulls back on the stick the force goes from top down, relatively. If he kicks the rudder, it's from side to side, relatively.

Obviously the vertical Gs have the ability to reach dangerous extremes. My guess is, any rudder use or spins that result in horizontal Gs would likely be less than 3 Gs. A jolt from a flak burst might exceed that if close enough.

If you are in an aircraft that is doing 300 mph and you kick the rudder while holding the wings level, it would be like a car making a 300 mph turn on a flat surface. NOT the same number of Gs, but a significant number.

In AH we do these things all the time. We use extreme amounts of rudder in tight turning, high G, 1v1s as well as other situations, hence my statement "...if it were real..." We would be kicking full rudder at anywhere from 130 to 200 mph maybe more and it's going to throw you around a bit.

Those types of fights were "fights of a lifetime" to the majority of ww2 pilots and relatively rare. But it did happen and they were violent, not comfortable, coordinated joy fights.

And none of this even takes into consideration the turbulence you would encounter while flying in the wake of an enemy aircraft and the bouncing around that can make it hard to keep your feet on the pedals without locking your body up and draining what little energy you have left.

If you ever get a chance to talk to any WWII pilots ask them how they used their rudder in combat. Sure some maneuvers require for your aircraft to be uncoordinated but most of the time you want to use enough rudder (not full rudder, but just enough for what ever you are doing). The reason most people in AH don't use rudder is because we don't have too many people receiving proper instructions on how to fly.

Using rudder at all is a mostly instinctive act unless you are constantly looking at your turn and slip indicator. NO ONE does this. And several factors can throw the coordination of an aircraft off. Wind, improper trim, drag, or just bad coordination.

I think it is quite rare that anyone is so well coordinated that they can keep that ball in the tracks all of the time even if they are looking at the indicator. And in a dogfight, no fighter pilot is going to be looking at his turn and slip.

But the point was, in a hard, violent dogfight like we experience on a regular basis, you would not be in coordinated flight most of the time. And if any pilot in ww2 got into fights like ours, with lap belts but no shoulder harness and a nice roomy cockpit of a Jug or Mustang his head and body would be all over the place.

Sometimes when your uncoordinated you do feel those forces pulling you to the side, but an aircraft is not a race car, it is simply incapable of generating such high side Gs to slam you into the wall.


I think you are way overestimating the amount of force it takes to throw you side to side. We are talking 1 to 3 Gs here. It is not a break your shoulder or crack your skull slam, but it is violent, sudden and partly uncontrollable.

An experience aerobatic pilot will anticipate the forces on his body and counter them with his muscles, but no aerobatic pilot in the world will ever achieve the level of stability our cartoon pilots have without the help of restraints that were not available in WW2.

And the majority of pilots in ww2 were not "professional" aerobatic pilots. Most were green and had barely enough hours to make them proficient pilots. They likely wouldn't anticipate much of anything that happened to them in combat.


I'm not really familiar with how flak bursts effect air pressure, I mean I know the general idea but I don't know how significant that change in pressure would be. Would you know of any numbers to help us discuss whether or not the effect is significant enough to add it to AH?

Tell your kid to unexpectedly set off a couple of M80s in the floor of your car while you are driving with the window rolled up. Then tell me you dont cringe, blink, or lose vision and concentration for a split second.

It's not all about the pressure. The shock and violence plays just as much a roll.

That acute awareness everyone was talking about earlier in this post comes from knowing you are in a dangerous situation. It does not come from, nor is it constant if an explosive device goes off in your vehicle. That kind of thing causes disorientation which most of the time results in distorted vision and momentary confusion and it is well documented.

In case no one else has mentioned it, the OP probably got his idea from other flight sims. IL-2 does model the head shake much more than AH does but still not realistically. And I think Warbirds models some disorientation. Just FYI
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Stellaris

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2011, 12:51:22 AM »
I think that when you get shot down or bail from the plane, the game should quote Churchill at you.

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

“If you are going through hell, keep going.”

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Offline colmbo

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2011, 01:57:07 AM »

What is your experience?

3400 hours total, acro in Cap 10, T-6 and P-51.  Even as a passneger a snap roll in the CAP 10 didn't bang me around as you describe it.  Sure, it moves you around...that's basic physics....but nothing close to being "a rag doll".

What is your flight experience?

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I think it is quite rare that anyone is so well coordinated that they can keep that ball in the tracks all of the time even if they are looking at the indicator. And in a dogfight, no fighter pilot is going to be looking at his turn and slip.

It is rare that a proficient pilot DOESN'T keep the ball in the center...some acro excluded of course.

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But the point was, in a hard, violent dogfight like we experience on a regular basis, you would not be in coordinated flight most of the time.

Why not?  With the exception of skids to spoil an attackers gun solution there is no reason not to be coordinated in your flight.  Coordinated means less drag, more speed -- those are good things.

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I think you are way overestimating the amount of force it takes to throw you side to side.

I think you are blowing out of proportion the effect it has on the pilot.


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no pilot in the world will ever achieve the level of stability our cartoon pilots have

I agree 100%

Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline muzik

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2011, 12:36:06 PM »
What is your flight experience?

Certainly no where near what yours is. So how many hours of that is actually aerobatic?

3400 hours total, acro in Cap 10, T-6 and P-51.  Even as a passneger a snap roll in the CAP 10 didn't bang me around as you describe it.  Sure, it moves you around...that's basic physics....but nothing close to being "a rag doll".

Not familiar with the aircraft, did it have shoulder harnesses? I dont think a CAP and a full size fighter is really a good comparison either. Ever done a snap roll with a lap belt only?

Was that you in the Texan in the link you posted? Did you notice how tight the cockpit was in addition to the shoulder harnesses? Did you notice how leisurely the flight was?  Was someone shooting at you when you were doing those acros?

It is rare that a proficient pilot DOESN'T keep the ball in the center...some acro excluded of course.


acro is the whole point of our discussion. We aren't talking about leisure or professional flying here.

Why not?  With the exception of skids to spoil an attackers gun solution there is no reason not to be coordinated in your flight.  Coordinated means less drag, more speed -- those are good things.

In most of the duels Ive been in that lasted more than a minute, I spend a  considerable portion of that fight in a skid as part of a rolling scissors as do most of the opponents I flew against. In the MA I used them extensively as well, either for position or for breaking. Granted not everyone flys the same, but I am not alone by a long shot. Only someone who BnZs almost exclusively could possibly "fight coordinated" all the time.

So again, the comment "if it were real" was meant to take the way many players of AH fight, and suppose it was a real fight. If you were flying a mustang in a skid at 140 to 200 mph with only a lap belt to keep you steady, you would be glued to the side of the plane. Even if you had the strength to resist being thrown to the side going into the skid, (not likely) how long do you think you could hold it?   

I think you are blowing out of proportion the effect it has on the pilot.

And you are on to something there. Rag doll is a bit of an exaggeration, and slammed is a bit excessive. But neither is completely inaccurate.

I may not have the flight time you have, but I've done enough in my life to know what the human body can take, what it can do, and how easily a machine can toss a man around. I've also read enough fighter pilot bios to know that what I have said is accurate.

I can see it now, you sitting straight up in a nice roomy cockpit, with no harness, just before going into a skid, then waaammo, you looked like a rag doll getting slammed into the wall to me.  :D
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline muzik

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2011, 12:56:23 PM »
Not presenting this as my evidence, just some hints from old quotes.

Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds. — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF, aka Karaya One, worlds leading ace, with 352 victories in W.W.II.Jagdgeschwader 52

Good flying never killed [an enemy] yet. — Major Edward 'Mick' Mannock, RAF, ranking British Empire fighter ace of W.W. I. 61 victories.

The most important thing in fighting was shooting, next the various tactics in coming into a fight and last of all flying ability itself.— Lt. Colonel W. A. 'Billy' Bishop, RAF
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline ozrocker

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2011, 01:39:42 AM »
I want to hear and feel my pilot fill his drawers when he gets in a situation where his death is inevitable.  I want virtual realism dammit!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok


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Offline icepac

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2011, 08:19:49 PM »
I can't even get an aircraft to spin here.

The closest I have come is a snap half roll.

I don't think we can do snap rolls in aces high.

I have plenty of aerobatics time which seems to have been wasted since I do not fly for a living at this time.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Pilot Reactions
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2011, 06:44:22 PM »
you might have the stall limiter check on Icepac, I can get any of the AH planes to spin easily including the B29.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.