Author Topic: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum  (Read 4487 times)

Offline USRanger

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2011, 06:57:27 PM »
I prefer a no-icon AvA, but support turning them on for an arena more players will enjoy.  Outta here! :bolt:
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Offline 321BAR

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2011, 07:24:15 PM »
It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority. Just look at any "no icons" argument and the only claims they can use to defend themselves are "you suck if you don't master flying with no icons"

It is neither a crutch nor a cheat nor is it unrealistic. The human eye sees a sh**load more than any computer monitor can display, ever. It sees it better, faster, with much easier reactions and motions.

The reason most shot-down pilots in WW2 never saw the enemy that shot them down was because they weren't looking, not because they were looking and could not see the enemy.

If the "no icons" folks are going to leave because icons get turned back on in the AvA, maybe they need to master actual fighting and manuvering rather than relying on "being lost" by the target at 100 yards. Maybe it's not a bad thing they want to quit over this petty artificially-inflated premise going away.


krusty... why do you say this when you know fully well you can ID an aircraft at any long range if you look closely enough with the zoom (which is 1:1 IRL ratio). with that said, i'd prefer no icons in a historic setting due to the ability to see enemy and ally from long range by studying the silouettes. in the MA they need icons whether they are 6K or more is fine. 6K can tell you the difference between an enemy typhoon and an allied one with enough time to react to the threat. In a historical situation this is not needed
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Offline bustr

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2011, 07:50:39 PM »
Stop calling any of this realistic in real world terms of immersion. This is a 2D rendering of a 3D environment that we like chaseing each other around in. Vision is only approximated because we are focusing on a 2D panel 24-42 inches from our eyes. That means our eyes are never used in mid, far, or wide focus mode. We use exclusivly near focus to make out the pixels that are rendered to us to approximate width, depth and distance. HiTech feeds our brains a visual trick and we respond with "willingness to immerse" then let our imaginations take over and fill in the rest.

You are arguing the visual quality and clairity of 60 flat paintings every second that try to emulated a 3D lighted world. NOne of our eye's, LCD and vidcards show us this exactly the same as each other. Yet we argue from the single unique window into this picture show that is our own perspective of the pictures in front of us. But, with absolutly no experience to what those we argue against see on their monitor. You would be surprised how many variences in the ability to see colors and combinations of colors our eyes have across the population. We don't all percive green, brown, yellow, grey and blue the same when they are patterened next to each other. The colors presented to us in the game are how someone in the HTC production staff sees color in the real world.

None or limited Icons is just another way to play the game and has its fans. Just different than the full Icons in the MA's not better. AvA limited Icons always seems to have bad light conditions and everyone hiding in the dirt waiting to reverse pick you and run away. Just the reverse of the MA's perch position to start the pick. That posted film from IL2 looked like all the spits were AI. Nice eyecandy but in Aces High the 109 hero would have been dead very soon after the first pass staying that close to so may spits.

Why not you no icon guys goto the DA with shane and 1v1 duel him with no icons turned on? Then Hiding in the dirt or alt stops being the strongest ACM manuver.

Here is something I found from a pilot with 35 years active flying about visual recognition and vision.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: HOW FAR AWAY CAN A PILOT DETECT AN AIRCRAFT WITH THE NAKED EYE
Answered By: omnivorous-ga on 20 Oct 2003 15:31 PDT
   
Kongulu --

As you can imagine, there are many variables that determine how far
away an aircraft is visible.  However, the FAA's exhibits in Advisory
Circular AC 90-48C imply that air-to-air visibility for another large
aircraft should be about 10 miles:
Avweb
"A Radar for All Seasons" (FAA AC 90-48C, March 18, 1983)
http://www.avweb.com/newspics/ac90-48c.gif

Advisory Circular AC 90-48C (Pilots' Role in Collision Avoidance)
http://www.avweb.com/news/news/183050-1.html

In all of my years of flying (over 35), I can tell you that it's hard
to see another aircraft, often even at 1 mile.  I've spent lots of my
time flying in and out of Paine Field, where Boeing produces its
wide-body aircraft -- and in areas such as Moses Lake, WA where pilots
are trained on wide body aircraft.

I have seen other objects -- most notably a hot air balloon backlit by
the setting sun late in the day -- from 10-15 miles.

Your best chances of spotting another plane are:
?   when it is above you
?   at night, when lighting makes aircraft visible for dozens of miles
?   when there's a contrasting background (such as an aircraft flying
across the snow field of Mt. Rainier)
?   at high altitude where the air is clearer -- and in the mountain and
coastal ranges like the western U.S. where the air is free of dust and
humidity.

You may have seen aircraft flying at altitudes of 35,000' to 45,000'
above you.  What you notice first is the vapor trail, typically only
visible at altitudes above 35,000'.  Even with a plane at 35,000' or
almost 7 miles, it's difficult to detect the plane -- even from the
ground, where you're stationary.

There are many attributes that reduce the visibility of another
aircraft, including the structure of the eye itself.  The Airman's
Information Manual (AIM) notes, in its recommendations on proper
scanning techniques, that "foveal" vision -- the smaller center in the
rear of the eye -- provides only about a 10 degree angle for sharpest
vision.  In warning pilots to set up a series of narrow scan in
successive 10-degree arcs, the AIM "An aircraft at a distance of 7
miles which appears in sharp focus with the foveal center of vision
would have to be as close as 7/10 of a mile in order to be recognized
if it were outside of foveal vision."

Federal Aviation Administration
AIM
Section: 8-1-6 Vision in Flight

One of the best documents on best practices for collision avoidance is
this Aicraft Owners' & Pilots Association (AOPA) publication:
AOPA
"Collision Avoidance" (2002)
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa15.pdf

In order to help pilots overcome the weaknesses of vision, we tend to
rely on several things:
1.   a route structure that separates eastbound and westbound aircraft
into odd (east) and even (west) altitudes
2.   commercial aircraft carry TCAS (Traffic Alert and Control Systems)
that electronically track other aircraft nearby:
Mitre Corporation
Traffic Alert and Control Systems (May 21, 2003)
http://www.caasd.org/proj/tcas/
     3.  and we rely on Air Traffic Control alerts about nearby
traffic.  When you're flying cross-country and see few of the
airplanes nearby, it makes you realize how tough it is to see other
aircraft.

Google search strategy:
"collision avoidance" + vision + aircraft


Best regards,

Omnivorous-GA
 
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2011, 09:20:21 PM »

air-to-air visibility for another large
aircraft should be about 10 miles:

Thank you, Bustr.  The key word here is "large."  Generally, if you know what direction to look (think dot dar) you can pick out airliners at a good distance.  Smaller aircraft - such as WWII aircraft size - are much much more difficult to see, particularly if they are below you.  I think the no icons settings simulate this very accurately.

- oldman

Offline Dawger

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2011, 07:42:46 AM »
Thank you, Bustr.  The key word here is "large."  Generally, if you know what direction to look (think dot dar) you can pick out airliners at a good distance.  Smaller aircraft - such as WWII aircraft size - are much much more difficult to see, particularly if they are below you.  I think the no icons settings simulate this very accurately.

- oldman

Indeed it does. We have the equivalent of dot dar in the plane I fly in the real world. Airliners are fairly easy to spot using the TCAS system. Small aircraft are much more difficult, especially against similar color background.

It is amazing the number of aircraft you never see.

There are tragic examples of large aircraft hitting each other head on without one ever seeing the other.


Offline Dantoo

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2011, 08:30:52 AM »
Quote
Bull!
one can Positively Id AC type in real life 400-1000 at best..

Whatever else is written in this thread I have no comment about, but that is rubbish.  I have professional experience standing in Cab, identifying light aircraft by type beyond 3 miles.  It's done every day at hundreds of airports across the planet.

If you couldn't positively id them until 400-1000 (at best) life would be very exciting....and short.

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Offline Dawger

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2011, 09:18:29 AM »
Whatever else is written in this thread I have no comment about, but that is rubbish.  I have professional experience standing in Cab, identifying light aircraft by type beyond 3 miles.  It's done every day at hundreds of airports across the planet.

If you couldn't positively id them until 400-1000 (at best) life would be very exciting....and short.

rgds

So it is your contention that you can reliably identify manufacturer and model of an aircraft the size of a Me-109 at 18,000 feet or more  range? I'm not talking about just seeing them and knowing there is a small airplane three miles away. That can be done. I am talking about identifying them without prior knowledge of type from communicating with the pilot.

That would be pretty impressive.

20/20 is the visual acuity needed to discriminate two points separated by 1 arc minute or about 1/16 of an inch at 20 feet.

This translates into a person with 20/20 vision requiring a letter E 112 feet tall at 3 miles to be able to read the letter yet persons here are claiming to be able to pick out details of a aircraft no more than 25 feet in any dimension.

I am amazed. Shocked, even.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 09:27:56 AM by Dawger »

Offline Oldman731

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »
Whatever else is written in this thread I have no comment about, but that is rubbish.  I have professional experience standing in Cab,

Do you mean identifying planes in flight from a position on the ground?  Much easier to see a plane against the sky than it is against the earth.  This is so in a no-icons environment as well, no one complains about not being able to see bogies above you.  The trouble is picking them out co-alt or below, where the background is the earth.  Then it's quite difficult, both in the game and in real life.

- oldman

Offline Old Sport

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2011, 10:26:43 AM »
It's done every day at hundreds of airports across the planet.

Is that with binoculars? At approach speed (vs cruising or high speed combat)?

Best.

Offline bustr

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2011, 11:58:06 AM »
The two sides of this argument won't agree because there is no reason to. Just accept some of us are boob men and others are tush men. Then split the name Aces High into two catagories.

Aces High - Where the boob men fly high in the sky in the MA.
Aces Low - Where the tush men fly low in the dirt in the AvA.

Hmmm, there is that furball lake kind of insanity........ :noid
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2011, 12:10:19 PM »
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Offline Old Sport

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2011, 07:07:29 AM »
Here's a suggestion for an AvA arena icon setting that should not require too much boolean, and could possibly make the next update:

Add a system parameter that allows the arena administrator to set all icons to the same color (like light grey for example?).

This would give the anti-"no icons" player the ability to better see planes at a "safer" distance, but not instantly identify friend or foe by those neon red and green billboards. You'd still have to read the plane type. This could get tricky in a furball of any size.

Pro-"no icons" players would at least not have to bear the blazing red and green billboards. Check sixes for friendlies could still be made as well (I'd guess).

IIRC individuals can set icon colors on their front end as they wish, but as far as I know, there is no system parameter to force a single color across the entire arena.

This seems to be a very simple, workable compromise.

Comments???

Offline Oldman731

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2011, 09:54:53 AM »
Comments???


The AvA staff has no control over the coding.

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Offline jimson

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2011, 10:02:56 AM »
Here's a suggestion for an AvA arena icon setting that should not require too much boolean, and could possibly make the next update:

Add a system parameter that allows the arena administrator to set all icons to the same color (like light grey for example?).

This would give the anti-"no icons" player the ability to better see planes at a "safer" distance, but not instantly identify friend or foe by those neon red and green billboards. You'd still have to read the plane type. This could get tricky in a furball of any size.

Pro-"no icons" players would at least not have to bear the blazing red and green billboards. Check sixes for friendlies could still be made as well (I'd guess).

IIRC individuals can set icon colors on their front end as they wish, but as far as I know, there is no system parameter to force a single color across the entire arena.

This seems to be a very simple, workable compromise.

Comments???

Light grey for both sides?

I kind of like this idea.

I think there is some merit here, but like Oldman says that would be up to HTC.

Offline Dawger

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Re: AvA icon setting "poll" - in AvA forum
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2011, 10:53:36 AM »
Here's a suggestion for an AvA arena icon setting that should not require too much boolean, and could possibly make the next update:

Add a system parameter that allows the arena administrator to set all icons to the same color (like light grey for example?).

This would give the anti-"no icons" player the ability to better see planes at a "safer" distance, but not instantly identify friend or foe by those neon red and green billboards. You'd still have to read the plane type. This could get tricky in a furball of any size.

Pro-"no icons" players would at least not have to bear the blazing red and green billboards. Check sixes for friendlies could still be made as well (I'd guess).

IIRC individuals can set icon colors on their front end as they wish, but as far as I know, there is no system parameter to force a single color across the entire arena.

This seems to be a very simple, workable compromise.

Comments???

Single color icons that allowed switching off inside a minimum distance would be a very good start. The single color would aid in seeing but not identifying friend or foe.

Absence of type ID of course would be necessary.

No range information also would be required.

A soft halo has been suggested in the past as it would give aspect information. Color could be made to slowly fade or intensify to represent closure without giving precise data.

And the icon disappearing completely inside of 800 yards would preserve the visuals of the close in fight.

All of the above are at least ten year old ideas, so I'm not going to hold my breath in anticipation of the code or coad.