Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up

[Furball]

I love it when pointy click spawncamp killers whine about being bombed.

[Rob52240]

If anyone think the British or US were stupid enough to have their heavy bombers float just above the tree top hunting gv's in multiple passes they are absolutely insane.

Bombers may have carpet bombed an area known to have enemy troops and vehicles, but heavy bombers  did it from high above the target area.

Bomber, especially heavy bombers *should* have some type of restriction on them.  It cant really be altitude because I can show you that B24D's dropped 100lb bombs in the PTO as low as 800ft (level).  Speed really doesnt effect the low alt bomb tard stuff.  Only the "bomb drop in F6 mode only" restriction can work.  That is arbitrary to HTC's wishes.

This type of reasoning will certainly lead to several things:

-Me 262 unavailable unless a huge formation of allied bombers are approaching at 30k

-Panzer 5 and both flavors of the Tiger will inevitably break down or run out of gas

-Stukas will be highly effective

-No more Jug tail slides

-No ammo counters

-Reasonable radar deck

-Proximity fuses on 5" disabled when shooting at allied aircraft

Feel free to add onto this list.

[SmokinLoon]

This type of reasoning will certainly lead to several things:

-Me 262 unavailable unless a huge formation of allied bombers are approaching at 30k

-Panzer 5 and both flavors of the Tiger will inevitably break down or run out of gas

-Stukas will be highly effective

-No more Jug tail slides

-No ammo counters

-Reasonable radar deck

-Proximity fuses on 5" disabled when shooting at allied aircraft

Feel free to add onto this list.

Apple.... meet Orange.  I'm speaking of a blatant abuse of a plane, aside from your 262 example you speak of arbitrary game play issues. FWIW, I think a few things on that list are worthy of implementing.

[Rob52240]

Apple.... meet Orange.  I'm speaking of a blatant abuse of a plane, aside from your 262 example you speak of arbitrary game play issues. FWIW, I think a few things on that list are worthy of implementing.

Correction.

Game play issues that I choose to let slide because they don't really matter and there is a counter strategy to every possible contingency.
 

[SmokinLoon]

Correction.

Game play issues that I choose to let slide because they don't really matter and there is a counter strategy to every possible contingency.
 

... which may or may not involve the blatant abuse of a non-arbitrary platform in the game.   

[Rich52]

Gee...Rich you haven't changed at all have ya, still short on the facts or in this case lack of facts...

The pre-attack bombardment carried out on 07/24/44 resulted in 25 US soldiers being killed by their own bombs.  During the main attack on 07/25/44, inaccurate bombing by the 8th AF led to the friendly fire deaths of 111 US soldiers.  Now compare this to the over 10,000 German soldiers killed and could you really say with a straight face that your claim that the USAAF killed more Americans than Germans during Operation Cobra is accurate?

I don't think anyone in this thread claimed that Operation Goodwood was a success, there has been a raging debate since whether or not it was a planned offensive by the British to break out of the Normandy beach head and capture Caen or as a diversionary attack in support of the US planned break out by drawing German panzer units away from the American lines.  Germany had identified the British and the Canadians as their most powerful threat on Normandy and rushed most of their panzer units to deal with the British and Canadians, leaving a skeleton force to face the Americans.  But I digress as that wasn't the point of my bringing up Operation Cobra, Goodwood or the Falaise pocket, it was to show that yes, during the war heavy bombers were in fact used to bomb tanks and other armored vehicles.  


ack-ack

You havnt changed much either. Show me one credible source that lists the number of German troops killed by the three bombing raids. To say 10,000 were killed is rediculous, even the most used number of 1,000 isnt even credible due to one of the most intense artillery barrages of the war preceding the attack, and, also the use of Jabos to accurately dive bomb and strafe German positions. Nobody knows how many Germans died by the screwd up heavy bomber campaign preceding Cobra cause a blowed up German could have been blowed up by other means. Here are the very words of Ike when he returned Britain to Britian after witnessing this debacle

Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the Allied supreme commander, had crossed the English Channel to Normandy for the day, only to return to his headquarters in England that evening, dejected and uncerCobrasut COBRAAca,!a,,cs success, but determined never to use heavy bombers in support of ground troops again.

http://www.army.mil/article/42658/_quot_Operation_COBRA_and_the_Breakout_at_Normandy__quot_/

Cobra worked cause the Germans thought the main thrust was centered at Caen and they concentrated a majority of their defenses there. Even the Germans stunned by the Cobra barrages quickly regrouped they were simply over-ran by superior forces using standard combined arms penetration and envelope tactics.

[Rob52240]

... which may or may not involve the blatant abuse of a non-arbitrary platform in the game.   

Aces High has taught me to live with abuse

[Ack-Ack]

You havnt changed much either. Show me one credible source that lists the number of German troops killed by the three bombing raids.

Show me one credible source that claims more Allied soldiers were killed than Germans by friendly Allied bombing, oh wait you can't because again, less than 200 US soldiers were killed by friendly bombs (already cited that source).  So, are you saying Richie Boy that less than 200 Germans were killed during the bombing phases of Operations Cobra and Goodwood?  Care to list those sources?


ack-ack

[Agent360]

Does anyone have any film of the "Lankstuka" in action?

Certainly if this were a real problem there would be film.

[Karnak]

Does anyone have any film of the "Lankstuka" in action?

Certainly if this were a real problem there would be film.

Every Lancaster I have seen carpet bombing GVs in AH has either been level or in a shallow dive.  I have never seen one doing anything even approaching a 30 degree dive.

[Rob52240]

Does anyone have any film of the "Lankstuka" in action?

Certainly if this were a real problem there would be film.

I posted some earlier in the thread

[MK-84]

I posted some earlier in the thread

Well, someone needs to post a video of them actually dive-bombing in a Lancaster...

I can not post myself because the wings seem to have a problem with falling off.

low level, yes, shallow dive, yes..."stuka," not so much

[Butcher]

You havnt changed much either. Show me one credible source that lists the number of German troops killed by the three bombing raids. To say 10,000 were killed is rediculous, even the most used number of 1,000 isnt even credible due to one of the most intense artillery barrages of the war preceding the attack, and, also the use of Jabos to accurately dive bomb and strafe German positions. Nobody knows how many Germans died by the screwd up heavy bomber campaign preceding Cobra cause a blowed up German could have been blowed up by other means. Here are the very words of Ike when he returned Britain to Britian after witnessing this debacle  http://www.army.mil/article/42658/_quot_Operation_COBRA_and_the_Breakout_at_Normandy__quot_/

Cobra worked cause the Germans thought the main thrust was centered at Caen and they concentrated a majority of their defenses there. Even the Germans stunned by the Cobra barrages quickly regrouped they were simply over-ran by superior forces using standard combined arms penetration and envelope tactics.

Hate to break it to ya Rich and not getting between this wanking match, but AKAK's claims are correct, one of the cases was a brutal accident where B-17's main bombardier accidently dropped his bombs and the rest of the bombers followed - thus was one of the few friendly fire incidents I know with over 100 casualties. I'd have to go find the source some where, but I do remember this case was an honest mistake, and lucky only 100+ were killed.

[Butcher]

Well, someone needs to post a video of them actually dive-bombing in a Lancaster...

I can not post myself because the wings seem to have a problem with falling off.

low level, yes, shallow dive, yes..."stuka," not so much

I think it was ment as to degrade the people using Lancs as a Stuka to bomb tanks. Normally I see them come in a shallow dive and salvo 1 x 14 times.
First 10 miss and last 4 always hit.

[Rich52]

Hate to break it to ya Rich and not getting between this wanking match, but AKAK's claims are correct, one of the cases was a brutal accident where B-17's main bombardier accidently dropped his bombs and the rest of the bombers followed - thus was one of the few friendly fire incidents I know with over 100 casualties. I'd have to go find the source some where, but I do remember this case was an honest mistake, and lucky only 100+ were killed.

Thing is tho neither one of you can point anyone to a credible source listing, either the amount of German killed by the level bombing preceding Cobra, or any credible source saying it was anywhere a success, "causewasn'tasnt", tho Cobra itself was. Both the 24 July drop and 25 July drops landed mostly on American forces. Since we know how many Yanks were killed by the three failed drops, and dont know how many Germans, it would lead one to believe more Yanks were killed. Most of all since the entire 30'th Division witnessed the drops landing right on top of them. http://www.aero-web.org/history/wwii/d-day/12.htm

It all went do badly it killed the attacks LT General Chief of Staff and causeSupremeurpeme Commander Allied forces, who was in France at the time, to say "never again".

Soon commanders learned to follow-up air strikes with artillery barrages so that friendly infantry and armor forces could close with the demoralized enemy before he recovered and redeployed. Within six weeks after the Normandy landing, air and land forces were so confident of working together that fighter-bombers routinely operated as close as 300 yards to American forces. This was not true, unfortunately, of strategic bomber operations, as the strikes of late July and August clearly indicated.

http://www.aero-web.org/history/wwii/d-day/12.htm

It no doubt caused a stunning effect on the Huns and disrupted their command and control, but if they were stunned more then our own troops who got bombed we'll never know. And was it the level bombing, the Jabos precise strikes, or the artillery barrage that stunned them most ? History also records how the Germans rebounded swiftly even using the craters from the bombing as defensive positions and keeping the initial Yank advance to a very slow crawl. It was the commitment of a massive armored pincer that allowed the breakout followed by an entire Corp, all accompanied by complete air dominance. And they were up against a poorly manned and already beaten up remenant of a German force that could only be called a "Corp" on paper.

Opposing Collins was the German LXXXIV Corps, which had experienced heavy fighting and had many understrength units, such as the Panzer Lehr Division, which could muster only 3,200 troops along a 3-mile front.

http://www.americanmilitaryhistorymsw.com/blog/472745-operation-cobra-2531-july-1944/

I dont see what the point of this discussion is. Is anyone seriously saying Level bombing by heavy bombers was a successful tactic in WW-2 to take out German panzer formations ? Is all this some weak attempt to justify Lanc dive bombingivebombing in the game as "Historically correct"? Is anyone actually saying Cobra succeeded not by the Hun being fooled by the Caen deception but instead by the inaccurate level bombing by strategic bombers on 24/25 July ? Or "not" by the massive advantage of an American force in Jabos/fighters, artillery, armor, infantry, mobility, and logistics ? LOL, We had 170,000 artillery shells available to fire onto the Huns in the initial attack itself. We had well over 2,000 tanks compared to the Germans having 190. Their best armor already deployed at Caen.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/operation_cobra.htm

Was this use of heavies reasonable in 1944 ? Was it executed well ? Was it worth it ? Was it needed for Cobra itself to succeed ? Did it do more damage to an already beaten up German army, undermanned with poor moral, or to the Yank army that by far already outgunned its enemy ? http://isme.tamu.edu/JSCOPE00/CaI'mfano00.html

Im pretty much done with this. I cant discuss things with people who make no effort to support their conclusions. Most of all with a simpleton who likes to follow people around a forum playing obstructionist.