Thach weave

[Rich52]

Im fascinated with this combat tactic and wonder if pairs have used it with success in the game. 

[morfiend]

 Rich,

  the short answer is yes,I've used it with some success although it take a willing partner and good timing on both pilots part.

  If your flying a plane that doesnt have the greatest turn performance using the thatch weave can make a huge difference in the outcome.

     I recall a time in the AvA when a friend and I were in 190A8's and we were bounced by a pair of P51's we used a variation of the thatch weave to put those 51's in the other guys guns.After a well fought fight on both side the 190's were able to take out the 51's do to superior firepower and the thatch weave.


   

PS: to practice this you really need 3 pilots,2 to do the weave and 1 to act as a chaser plane,this will help with the timing of your weaves!

[Rich52]

Thanks for the reply. I'd like to see some film of it sometime. Actual combat tactics used in the game I find very interesting.

[morfiend]

 Well rich I never film,infact I've never recorded a single sortie so I cant supply you with any film.


 

   


   

[The Fugitive]

Check with the "Loose Deuce" squad. They work wingman tactics a lot, they may have films

[phatzo]

Or if you see Front ingame wing up with him, he is really good at thatch weave.

[bozon]

To do this you either need a wingman that you know well, but I have done it with other experienced MA players who understood what I was trying to do.

The horizontal variant (the text book version) takes quite a lot of coordination and timing. The vertical variant is a bit easier to do when the other player is less cooperative. In the vertical, instead of doing horizontal figure 8s, you do vertical ones. The attacker will likely go after the rear plane of the pair:
1. You, the front plane, pull up and away to build both vertical and horizontal separation. This commits the attacker to your wingman and slows you down so they start to overtake you underneath.
2. Dive back down into attack position building back your speed.
3. Your wingman, if he has any understanding, will go into vertical scissors timing is pull-up to your diving down into gun position.
- Another variant is that he goes into flat scissors and then the timing is up to you.
4. You take one shot on the way down and in some cases you can take another shot when pulling back up.
- If your wing is doing flat scissors you will get one shot each pass.
5. zoom back up, flip over and do another weave - use the zoom height to control your forward advancement with respect to your wing and enemy.
This goes on either as full vertical figure 8s (both of you going vertical) or your wingman doing horizontal "S" pattern while you stitch it with up/down "S".

The vertical variant give you much more control and initiative while your wing can concentrate more on timing his guns defense, but you have to have good speed to start with. The classic horizontal version is much more strict about timing, but does not depend on a lot of available energy.

[Agent360]

This works in the game quite well but not in the way you have read about it in the books.

The thatch weave was used against Zero's who had better turn over the allied planes. To counter that it took two working together.

In the game it does work but you have to use more vert and keep SEPERATION from your wing man.

Its more of a offer your six...wingman comes in and offers his six. In this way you bait the bandit into a turn where your wingman can get guns.

You and your wingman start out at 2k seperation...bait some contacts into a dive.....then begin to weave. Your looking for the bandit to commit to one of you....when that happens the wingman has the guns.

You can also set it up when scouting a hord by diving in and weaving. Your looking for a bandit to make a stall reverse for guns as you go by...you wingman will get the guns as this happens.

It is a bait and switch situation but if you do it right the bait can get away on the break and the wingman slides in for a nice profile shot.

Its same principle but used in a different way than the historical one.

[VonMessa]

Thanks for the reply. I'd like to see some film of it sometime. Actual combat tactics used in the game I find very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGSgbFyZPmw&playnext=1&list=PLC43A969B30A90D70

[dtrip61]

Since the LD was mentioned and the boss hasn't chimed in as of yet, I thought a little explanation of LD tactics would be appropriate here.

We fly more of a mutually supportive role in the MA versus strict lead/wing elements.  It's kind of like a free-for-all where we are constantly trying to be aggressive as individuals while at the same time keeping an eye on our squaddies to cover their runs.  Usually we will maintain a height advantage on the fight and pick out the highest threat level aircraft first and "tag team" the threat.  If someone is diving into the sea of red, another squaddie will generally follow in a loose trail to either a) finish off the con after it made a break turn or b) shoot any cons that end up on lead's six.  Singles don't get 3 or 4 LD's hording him.  Two is all it takes for the most part.  That leaves the others free to pursue other attacks.  When we inevitably get low and higher cons come into the fight we will generally egress in a predetermined direction either in pairs or in mass and regain the advantage before returning to the fight.  The weave does come in handy here if two of us are low and one of us picks up a tail.  A gentle turn towards each other is all it takes to give the bandit an LD on his six.  If the pair starts to get decisively engaged, other LD's will double back to aid their egress.  It's all about remaining aggressive while ensuring that none of your squaddies wind up in a totally defensive position.  It takes a bit of discipline to roll off a sure kill to aid a squaddie that looks like they might be getting defensive or to turn around and egress with everyone else instead of making that one last run but that's what we do.

We won't go into the bracket maneuvers (left and right, high and low) or some of the other more "organized" type tactics we employ in more "structured" environments here, but I invite you the check out the LD web page or talk to some of the guys online if you're interested.

Oh, and while I'm at it, a big <S> to the allied guys in Sunday's SEA fight.  We got our collective tails handed to us in my opinion.  Those dang jet things just don't handle like a hog!  It was without a doubt the best tactics employed by a group of buffs that I've been witness to.  They had superb discipline and tactics and earned a very well deserved and hearty salute.  It was a thing of beauty (even from the chute!)

-dtrip

[Midway]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGSgbFyZPmw&playnext=1&list=PLC43A969B30A90D70

Nice video.  Thank you. 

[Rich52]

Great piece of Historia. Thank you.

[Saxman]

The real purpose of the Thach Weave is to force the enemy into a position where no matter what he does he's got guns on him. In that case it doesn't really matter (comparatively) if the bandit is flamed, so long as you've suckered him into that position and forced a decision on him. Either he commits to his first target and is threatened with a front-quarter shot by the other aircraft, or he breaks, which ALSO risks giving up a guns solution. Read about Nishizawa's reaction to the tactic during the Guadalcanal campaign. He wasn't shot down, but when he got out of Dodge and RTB'ed he was FUMING that every time he got on a Wildcat's tail another was heading right at him nose-on, forcing him to disengage.

[grizz441]

To me the full weave maneuver is not worth the effort in aces high, however a simpler derivative of it is much more useful and effective imo.  For example if you are engaging one coalt con, all you have to do is horizontally spread out about 1k with the midpoint of your distance lining up with the center of the incoming con.  He really only has two options, Fly right between you two, in which both of you can turn in on him and have him saddled, or pick one to nose to nose merge with where the other has him saddled.  Best way to merge a con with a wingy.  It's simple to set up as well.  You can be flying close to your wingman and when a con appears in icon range just call out "I have left merge" and pull for the left edge, your wingy pulls for the right edge of the merge.  Simple as that.

Most of Kappa and I's weaving comes with bad guys on our tail, weaves are both horizontal and vertical as we weave back and forth to clear one another while maintaining E.