Author Topic: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled  (Read 2006 times)

Offline Karnak

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We've all seen these posts over and over.  Posts stating that something is over or under modeled as a plain fact with nothing to back it up.  These posts are completely and absolutely useless and can even be harmful when new players are gathering information and see those claims so confidently stated.  HTC is not perfect, nor do they claim to be perfect, and they have modified unit performance repeatedly through this game's history based on supplied evidence.

Here is how not to do it:

so you can take your pompus attitude and shove it  ;) theres alot of things the brewster does in game it shouldnt do, and the charts say it cant do, so like i said, going by JUST the chart its not only naive, but insanely blind.
But next time i got a spit16 barreling down on me, i'll make sure to PM him and tell him his spit isent capable of doing that. because the "charts" say so  :x
The poster starts with a confrontational attitude.  He then follows up by making hard claims that a unit in the game does stuff the real one could not do and goes on to insult that those who use charts as evidence.  He then conflates test data with a combat situation as anecdotal evidence.

If HTC even reads this, they are not going to think "Hmm, maybe there is something we missed in our modeling of that unit.  Lets look at it again."

Another "how not to do it":

It seems to me that either the Mosquito is not carrying a full fuel load or its fuel burn rate is much higher than other aircraft in AH. The Mosquito FB.VI had a range of 1,800 miles on internal fuel. It seems to barely fly further than the Spitfire MkIX in AH. Last night I took a Mosquito with full fuel and droptanks and only managed 8 sectors or so before landing on fumes.

The Mosquito FB.VI had a range of 1,800 miles.

The Spitfire MkIX had a range of about 600 miles.

The Mosquito carries 539 Imp gal of fuel internally, or 269.5 Imp gal per engine. It has two 68 Imp gal center tanks, two starboard inboard tanks with the inner tank holding 78 Imp gal and the outer tank holding 65.5 Imp gal, two starboard outer tanks with the inner tank holding 34 Imp gal and the outer tank holding 24 Imp gal, two port inboard tanks with the inner tank holding 78 Imp gal and the outer tank holding 65.5 Imp gal and two port outer tanks with the inner tank holding 34 Imp gal and the outer tank holding 24 Imp gal. This is about 3,400lbs of fuel. (This info is specific to the Mosquito B.XVI, but I think it is generally accurate for all Mosquitoes)

The Spitfire MkIX carries 85 Imp gal of fuel internally, a 48 Imp gal upper tanks and a 37 Imperial gallon lower tank. This is about 530lbs of fuel.
There are lots of numbers in this post and the information is presented in a non-confrontational manner, but there are also no sources used to support the claim.  Due to the lack of sources it is not a useful post and did not result in any change to the claimed error.


This post resulted in the requested change being implemented in the following version of AH:
Some time ago I stated that I felt the Mosquito consumed fuel too rapidly.  As evidence I gave the fact that the Spitfire Mk IX has greater endurance than does the Mosquito in AH.

Spit_9 -- 35/+21=56 
Mossie -- 34/+16=50


The original thread can be read here: The Mossie's flight endurance still seems too short

Acting on advice from that thread I obtained a PDF file of the Pilot's Notes for the Mosquito FB 6 from snafu's website.  The Pilot's Notes for the Mosquito FB 6 can be found by clicking on the Pilot's Notes link on snafu's website.

On page 11 of the pilot's notes it lists the fuel capacity of the Mosquito FB 6's various fuel tanks:

MAIN SUPPLY
Centre tanks....................50 gallons
Inner tanks....................286 gallons
OUTER TANKS................116 gallons
_____________________________
Total........................ .....452 gallons
Long-range tank...............63 gallons
Wing drop tanks..............200 gallons
(2 x 100 gallons)
_____________________________
Total fuel capacity...........715 gallons

(Interestingly this is less than the total internal fuel capacity of 543 gallons listed on the HiTech Creations Mosquito page)


On pages 30-33 of the pilot's notes there are flight planning charts that give the fuel consumption for various speeds, weights and altitudes.

For the ease of calculations I selected settings that would consume fuel at a rate of 100 gallons per hour so that I could simply use the 50 gallon Centre tank.  If the fuel consumption was correct, then the fuel should last half an hour.

The settings were:
AUW: 17,000lbs
Altitude: 10,000ft
RPM: 2,400
TAS-KNOTS: 275

TEST SETUP
Using the AKDesert map in offline mode I set the fuel consumption to 1.0000.  I selected A56 as my take off field, planning a southwest flight along the channel.

To get roughly an All Up Weight of 17,000lbs I set the Mosquito to full fuel, no external or internal stores, 150 rounds per 20mm gun and 500 rounds per .303 gun.

TEST

Once on the runway I selected the right inner (RI) fuel tank before starting the engines so as to keep the centre tank (AUX) full.

I then took off, climbed to 10,000ft and set a southwest heading.

I then reduced my RPM settings from 3,000 to 2,400 and reduced my boost setting from 14lbs./sq.in. to 8lb./sq.in.

The Mosquito's airspeed declined until it settled at about 265mph. (This was 265mph true airspeed, not indicated airspeed)

I then switched to the AUX tank and started a timer simultaneously.

RESULTS

The AUX tank was drained in 13 minutes and 52 seconds which indicates a fuel consuption rate with those settings of approximately 200-225 gallons per hour, or more than twice the fuel consumption listed for those settings in the Flight Planner Charts of the Pilot's Notes for the Mosquito FB 6.

CONCLUSION

The Mosquito FB.Mk VI in AH is consuming fuel at more than twice the rate it should be.  If the AUX tank also includes the 63 gallon Long range tank (which given AH's higher listed fuel capacity it may be) the fuel consumption would be more than four times the rate it should be.
This post referenced a primary source document and explicitly spelled out the test figures and methodology.   It was probably more detailed than required, but it gave solid evidence that could be tested, verified and acted upon by HTC if they decided it was important enough.


SUMMARY
If you really think something is over or under modeled, don't state it as fact on the forums.  Research it, find supporting evidence, primary source if at all possible, and post detailed results of your testing and data collecting efforts.  Doing otherwise is wasting time and will result in no change.  It is possible that in doing research you will find information that shows HTC has it modeled correctly as well.  When you post statements about over or under modeling based on your feelings and/or vague understandings you do both yourself and others a disservice.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 10:10:45 PM »
See rule #4
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 09:18:14 AM by hitech »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 10:12:50 PM »
Deleted for quoted above.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 09:18:43 AM by hitech »
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 10:24:50 PM »
Karnak does have a valid point.  There are ways to convey a valid or arguable piece of data vs stompin' and screaming like a 2 year old. 

Printed sources, or rather printed original sources are the best data for HTC to use when pounding away on the "coad".  HTC can refer to the hard data, and 100 bits of real testimony from pilots who flew the aircraft ( and get 99 different versions of how plane X flies), and hopefully achieve as accurate of a flight model can be.  Obviously, the software can only go so far but when a judgement call is made I believe that HTC does what they feel is best.  The only time I'll sway from giving HTC my full bit of confidence is when the topic of discussion of that MF'in over-modeled dweeb chariot: the one and only Spitfire 16.   ;)
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Offline pervert

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 10:38:58 PM »
BBS is pretty funny of late  :rofl

Offline Devil 505

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 10:59:21 PM »
I like how Karnak quoted himself as a "how not to".  :salute
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Offline LLogann

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2011, 11:05:20 PM »
 :aok

BBS is pretty funny of late  :rofl

This is a great post Karnak!!!
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Offline Karnak

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2011, 11:09:27 PM »
I like how Karnak quoted himself as a "how not to".  :salute
To find those posts I waded through a lot of rather embarrassing posts of mine....
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Offline branch37

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2011, 02:42:14 AM »
You do make a good point Karnak. :salute 

Any source, even if it is Wikipedia, is better than none while simply complaining about being killed because the plane is "over modeled".  To me at least, it seems that HTC wouldn't include a plane if they weren't pretty certain their data was at least close to being accurate.

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Offline pervert

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2011, 07:36:53 AM »
:aok

This is a great post Karnak!!!

Was laughing at smokingloon agreeing with Karnak then saying the spit 16 was overmodelled without any proof or even a reason why.  :D

Offline Bronk

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2011, 08:29:40 AM »
Karnak does have a valid point.  There are ways to convey a valid or arguable piece of data vs stompin' and screaming like a 2 year old. 

Printed sources, or rather printed original sources are the best data for HTC to use when pounding away on the "coad".  HTC can refer to the hard data, and 100 bits of real testimony from pilots who flew the aircraft ( and get 99 different versions of how plane X flies), and hopefully achieve as accurate of a flight model can be.  Obviously, the software can only go so far but when a judgement call is made I believe that HTC does what they feel is best.  The only time I'll sway from giving HTC my full bit of confidence is when the topic of discussion of that MF'in over-modeled dweeb chariot: the one and only Spitfire 16.   ;)

Perfect... a 2 year old foot stomp.
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Offline dirtdart

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2011, 08:37:41 AM »
Yeah, I got egg on the face when I went down the...all airplanes should be able to select their fuel tanks... turns out there were quite a few planes with only one tank.  The shame of it all.... 
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Offline waystin2

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2011, 08:49:35 AM »
Good point Sir, but I think your post is over-modeled... :D
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Offline MaSonZ

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 09:53:23 AM »
Good point Sir, but I think your post is over-modeled... :D
proof! I demand it!


Karnak, great post sir.  I can't for the life of me understand why you used the Mossie though as your example plane. :bolt:
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Offline AHTbolt

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Re: How to make a valid claim something is over or under modeled
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2011, 10:03:34 AM »
Great post I myself don't really comment on aircraft because i have never flown one have ridden in many (B17,B25,Lancaster,etc). My area of knowledge is tanks so i will comment on those every now and then(19 year tanker 19E, 19K and worked for the Texas military forces museum as the vehicle preservationist), when I talk about the Sherman I pull out the -10 the operators manual and can quote from the book. But I understand the frustration when looking at some planes in the game , my pet peeve Is the 110 in the battle of Britten it was shot out of the sky and had to have fighter escort. But in game it can turn on a dime and fight a spitfire to a draw, do I have a manual no but everything you read about it even from the German reports states it was a dog. But I'm not an expert so I live with it because its anecdotal on my part.  AS a small side note the Sherman we had at the museum was named Aces High which now I find really ironic.
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