Author Topic: At the gun range Saturday  (Read 1931 times)

Offline ACE

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2011, 02:03:12 PM »
I can tell he is on parolee :)
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Offline Stoney

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2011, 02:07:33 PM »
The Marine Corps pistol course of fire includes 7, 15, and 25 yards.  You want to tell them that the 7 yard line is a waste of time Dago?
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 02:20:45 PM »
Did my first IDPA shoot about 2 weeks ago.  Very different when you add some stress to the situation.  I saw an excellent shooter who can hit the target at 15-25 yards put a round outside the 8-inch circle at about 3 yards.
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Offline M0nkey_Man

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 02:26:54 PM »
Upgrading to .30 caliber helped in my case  :).  My first time hog hunting a few years ago didn't go well with a .223 and what amounted to varmint ammunition.
my same mistake:.223= pissed off hog
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Offline katanaso

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 02:38:21 PM »
This

I'm amazed how many people think they are good to go for some terd attacking them because they can hit a stationary target at 15 yards that is not shooting back.

Add to that the number that are closing one eye to aim and slow firing -- that's realistic in a defensive scenario.  :rolleyes:

There's a big difference between target shooting, which is fun, and shooting for self-defense, which is what I want to do well without thinking about it.


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Offline Dago

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2011, 02:39:59 PM »
Well if you're going to go out of your way to make a blanket statement people are stupid for engaging at close range then I'll make a point to say they're not.  Being able to hit a target at distance does not translate into having the skills to perform well up close.  That's your misconception and while it may be logical it is most definitely not true especially in a high stress situation.  What will save your bellybutton is basic motor skills, muscle memory and lots and lots of repetition.  There is no substitute for actually putting rounds through the gun at any distance and when you're talking about very close ranges where you may well not have an opportunity to aim that's fine.

I can say that you can take guys who are great bench shooters and they will not perform as well in the woods against moving game.  This is with delicious animals as targets that aren't firing back.  They're looking for an X ring when a kill shot will do and will delay taking a good shot in the name of a great shot.  When you let 20 hogs run by you without firing a single round because you couldn't get a proper aim on one, something's wrong.

Yes to the weapon lights, no to the lasers on my carbines and rifles which I'm sure you're referring to.  Crimson Trace grips do reside on my carry guns with the exception of a Sig P238.  I do have night vision optics and night vision capable sights for the carbines and rifles.  Weapon lights have their place on weapons when you might engage in an environment which is often referred to as "darkness."  Being able to illuminate what you're going to be shooting at with 100-250 lumens really helps you in that respect not only with the fact you'll see what you're shooting at but you may realize you're not going to need to shoot at all.

But you're right, you're entitled to your opinion. Have at it, ace.

Thanks for fulfilling the stereotype Rambo.

Read your magazines, and now you are prepared for the apocalypse.  Have a holster with straps for you leg too?   :rofl

Funny, I do know some guys who have "been there done that".  I know how they practice.  I doubt you are in their league.

And, if you are going to allude to my statements, get it right, a right seater should.

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Offline Dago

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2011, 02:41:47 PM »
The Marine Corps pistol course of fire includes 7, 15, and 25 yards.  You want to tell them that the 7 yard line is a waste of time Dago?

What?  They do 15 yards and 25 yards????   How dare they, don't they know all bad guys aren't a threat until they are at 7 yards, and only at 7 yards?
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2011, 02:52:26 PM »
What?  They do 15 yards and 25 yards????   How dare they, don't they know all bad guys aren't a threat until they are at 7 yards, and only at 7 yards?

So you know that these guys at the range never shoot past 7 yards.  The fact that you saw them shooting once at a shorter distance means they have never ever in their life fired from a longer distance than that very moment you saw them. 

Chill dude, you're on a rampage against these "tacticool" wanna be rambo people when no one in this thread has shown me anything that they are those kind of people.  Go take it out on some kids playing airsoft or something.
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Offline Rich52

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2011, 02:57:13 PM »
Quote
I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills.   They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility

I believed this, or variations of it, for the first 50 or so times I heard it. But now not so much, "actually not at all". All thats missing in your post are implications of your own vast skills, that far exceed those of any "cop". Or maybe you got around to it, and since I didnt bother reading the entire silly thread, missed it.
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Offline icepac

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2011, 03:05:24 PM »
Lasers are for acquiring guns from newly blind opponents.

I suggest 1 watt.

Offline Golfer

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2011, 03:06:59 PM »
Thanks for fulfilling the stereotype Rambo.

Read your magazines, and now you are prepared for the apocalypse.  Have a holster with straps for you leg too?   :rofl

Funny, I do know some guys who have "been there done that".  I know how they practice.  I doubt you are in their league.

And, if you are going to allude to my statements, get it right, a right seater should.

You've really misread something, made some baseless assumptions or you're a...oh right, you're you.

Form follows function and my 3 gun setup is a chest rig with several options for magazine and sidearm placement if you really want to know.  Some days a drop leg holster is best, other days a chest mounted setup is best depending on the course of fire.  Either way it's an efficient setup to have my carbine and pistol magazines handy as well as shotgun rounds or loaders.  It's not a matter of being ready for an apocalypse or some of the wackadoos on gun websites preparing for Armageddon.  It's what's practical.

I've been through a few pistol, carbine and rifle classes.  Each have their different techniques and points of emphasis and while they're not all good for all situations it's nice to have varied backgrounds and experiences with the instructors as well as the students.  Each of them I felt I came out better for it because I learned something and with enough instruction experience my way isn't the only way.  Different isn't worse (it's not always better either) just because it's different.

Nobody said a threat isn't a threat until 7 yards either.  You're being a dick and you know it.  You can engage with pistols out to 100 yards if you want but that doesn't make them the best tool for the job.  I'd contend it's good experience to shoot pistols out to as far as you can practically shoot because its both fun and informative.  Would I shoot at somebody with a pistol at 30 yards if I have carbine?  Not if I had ammunition for the carbine.

It's great and makes sense to shoot at 25 yards with a pistol.  If you're at a range on a weekend where folks who don't shoot regularly are getting a chance to put their precious few rounds down range because they don't train often for whatever reason, then I'd push them to train like they might fight.  That's up close.  Taking careful aim and hitting your target at 25 yards is super duper but it's not what they'd be likely to encounter in a concealed carry defense situation so it's not exactly an efficient use of time or ammunition.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 03:21:49 PM by Golfer »

Offline Gman

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2011, 04:28:20 PM »
IMO it pays to train at all ranges, from zero to 50+ with a handgun.  In reality, the most important thing with handgun training is usually the one LEAST covered by most schools, and that's the AWP - access withdraw and present to target.  Getting your hand on hit, getting it out, and getting it up on target - at the varying ranges you'll be engaging a target at with your pistol, hitting it shouldn't be as big a concern as getting yourself and your weapon into the position to hit it.  

I also caught a few bits of people discussing weapon mounted lights in this thread - I took a few courses from surefire, and got my instructors certs for low light level shooting from their school of thought, but even then I like DAGO have my own personal opinions, which include that the light should never be mounted on a short(pistol) as it takes away SO many options you have for your light when in a space that requires a pistol to be used.  Example:  how can you use the best trick in the book, which is shinning your light on the roof indoors in a room, which A: lights up the entire room from the light reflecting of the light colored roof/walls instead of just a small focused spot and b: move the light source off axis out of plane from your body and weapon.  This flies in the face of all the big "light" companies training courses, somewhat due to the fact that they want to SELL weapon mounted lights/lasers like the M3x M6x etc,  but I think my way is best for me and the people I TRAIN, so that's it.  It's like Dago is saying his way is what he thinks is best, and it's how he'll train.  It may be different than currently accepted systems from all the big companies, it may not, but he'll train that way and improve continually till he stops.

Also, even though I don't completely agree with what Dago has said regarding longer range training, I will say that the years I spent shooting PPC revolver at 50 yard targets long before I ever got into "tactical" shooting and training, and then working with those skills operationally, that having shot SO MUCH at longer ranges than currently taught and focused on that I had a huge advantage at closer range as I was trained and familiar with shooting at longer more difficult ranges for the most part.  So in some sort of degree, what he is saying is probably correct; at least it is for me.

As a side note, I personally feel that a lot more would be gained on shooting courses by learning to shoot through live barriers like out of vehicles through the windows open AND closed, and from non standard positions (again, fighting while seated in a vehicle or from supine positions etc) than from training to shoot at 5-7 yards.  The very first drill I do for every day of pistol shooting is dry fire at 0 yards at a spot on a wall, then some quick object drills vs targets at 5-7, and THEN begin training with the most realistic tools to hand, like old vehicles and built up corners.  

A spin on what Dago was saying for me is that I ALWAYS see guys, at home and in Afghanistan working on their speed drills, whether it's accessing their pistol, failure to fire drills/reloads/transitions what have you.  The problem is they are ALWAYS doing it at targets that are 5-7 yards away.  The day I see somebody do a failure drill then shoot a target at 50 yards once his pistol is back up I think I'll faint.


In closing, I'll say that the absolute BEST way to solve arguments and differences about what works best is to break out the simmuntion and fight it out.  Having some guy who can only punch nice neat holes at 25m go up against me at 7 meters when I can draw and fire in under the time it gets him to even get his hand on his weapon will shut his bellybutton up forever, and the opposite is true, going up against billy the kid reborn at 30 meters can be great for some laughs as you shoot him in the face consistently as he misses you with wild too-rapid-for-accuracy draws and shots.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 04:34:24 PM by Gman »

Offline Dago

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2011, 05:28:50 PM »
You guys are cracking me up.

1) Basically said I did okay, and was happy with how I did.

2) I find it ridiculous that everyone at the pistol range was shooting at 7 yards.  squealing stupid that they don't ever roll the target out to any distance.  They aren't all cops or spec ops guys.

3) I think too many are training at short ranges when most training can be done at home, running draw and reload drills with an empty weapon, and that time will serve them better than wasting ammo without really learning to aim.

4) This forum has gotten boring as heck, with kids talking about their comic books.  I saw 7 yards mentioned in another thread, and knew that I could stir guys up with a thread about that issue.  It worked.  I have had fun, like the old days, stirring it up.

Oh yeah, the funny this was, I was shooting better at 15 and 25 yards than most of the fools were doing slow firing at 7 yards, and none of them were running anything that looked even close to drills.  Not that I am any great shot, I'm not, they just suck.  Seems they never learned to aim and really use a handgun.  But dang, they looked all badass for sure.   Bet they took the targets home to impress that wife/girlfriend, as some from here have probably done.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Gman

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2011, 05:44:12 PM »
Quote
3) I think too many are training at short ranges when most training can be done at home, running draw and reload drills with an empty weapon, and that time will serve them better than wasting ammo without really learning to aim.

75% of more of any pistol practice can and SHOULD be done dry-firing or dummy rounds.  You can train your fire control/trigger finger very inexpensively, you're right.

Also, I'm not sure if it was Dago or another slagging thigh rig holsters.  Every Movie/TV show has tards running around using these rigs.  They are even more than common in the real world.  Nobody I know uses them for one reason - when you're running, it's almost impossible to draw from a holster that is moving with your leg...go ahead and try it if you have a leg rig, try and run without slowing or almost stopping and get by your retention system and draw.  Thigh rig is sort of ok for dodads that you don't need to get to quickly, like detachable suppressors and the like, but I still can't stand them, and think they are beyond useless.


This whole "7 yards 21 feet" thing is what gun magazine writers like Mossad Aboob talk about when they start jabbering about knife fighting , always good for laughs no matter which direction they subject goes.  Everybody is convinced that at 7 yards, and 7 yards only, a knife fighter will kill a firearm equipped opponent every time as though it's some rule set in stone by the gods.  


Also, I find most people who talk about kicking bellybutton on the range usually aren't even gripping their weapon properly, which isn't their fault if they haven't had an formal training and just had Pa teach em the ropes.  Horrific muzzle control, fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be, sweeping other people with their muzzles...I see it all from self styled experts who've been "shootin fer years, gots me 20,000 rounds a year downrange uh huh".  
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 06:05:30 PM by Gman »

Offline Widewing

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Re: At the gun range Saturday
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2011, 07:25:37 PM »
I like the challenge of shooting pistols at 25 yards... Trigger control, sight picture, steady, two-handed grip.

Even old revolvers can be very accurate, especially shooting precision hand-loads.

My Uberti Remington 1875 is deadly accurate...




Even better, my Rossi .357 Magnum revolver prints exceptional groups. Yeah, I like revolvers...



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