At the gun range Saturday

[Vudu15]

You guys make me laugh, really.  I knew, absolutely knew there would be some "tactical range heros" here to defend shooting at knife range.  Got rail guns with lights and lazers hanging all over them too?  

I know the current mindset is to shoot up close when running tactical drills.  Practice to be mediocre.  You can run the same drills at 15 yards, running mag changes, point and shoot, but actually be able to learn to shoot and hit something would seem to serve more than just speed of draw and reload.  I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills.   They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility.  

Yeah, learn to shoot fast and not hit crap that isn't close enough to spit on.  Not my idea of good gun control and handling, but makes the "tacticool" feel badass I guess.

My opinion and I am welcome to it.  

do you have a CHL sir? have you ever seen a class in progress? been to gunsite maybe? guess not from your above posts... thats fine but as stated above most of your fights WILL be at knife range I carry a Star .380 I wouldnt use past the range of a room, but to put 6 HP 380 rounds in a person somewhere that will make them change thier mind about whatever they were up to before wouldnt be that hard. which is were I intend for it to be used.

so you keep up your pistol sniping there Steven Seagal and the rest of mere mortals will stick to stayin alive.

[Widewing]

Bank Miller was one of my first instructors for dedicated pistol training about 13 years ago (Bank ran the FBI's weapons training program for years prior to designing and maintaining the Air Marshall pistol program).  He told me that in his opinion from long experience, after the human mind and body combine to do a task with a handgun 20 thousand times, it will then begin the process of becoming "muscle memory" for lack of a better term.  20,000 rounds of pistol ammo is expensive for average and even non-average Joe, so doing dry fire and dry run drills repeatedly and consistently can speed a shooter along to this blissful place of "not thinking about it".

GMan, I know Bank Miller. He was chief instructor at SigArms academy up in Exeter, NH. I visited there two or three times in the late 1990s/early 2k to test prototype shot counters on the Sig 551. Very nice, smart guy. We took Bank and another instructor out for lunch. When we returned, Bank rolled out a cart with a case of frangible 5.56 ammo and we went to work.

[mbailey]

Glad you posted Gman, always like reading your take on things 

[morfiend]

Well, for Zombies, I have a 12 gauge SxS Coach Gun!   

(Image removed from quote.)

 Very nice Dave!

 Up here in Canukville they dont like us having guns and the restrictions involved with firearms are beyond ridiculous but I could jump through a few hoops and get something like that coachgun,well it would be a birdgun up here... ... even so it wouldnt be of much use as we must secure the firearm,unloaded with a triggerlock on in a vault.Ammo must be secured in a separate locked compartment,so by the time you could get it into action it would be too late.


   So I rely on my sleddogs,they will welcome you into the house for a "bite" to eat!


    

[SmokinLoon]

So while we're talking guns, I'll throw a question out there.

Any tips for someone looking at getting into reloading?  I've been looking into it for a couple months but it's still quite overwhelming. Read some stuff online, and read through "The ABC's Of Reloading" by Bill Chevalier.  Start-up cost keeps adding up, not sure it's really worth it.

It is worth it IF you take it seriously.  You can reduce your costs by up to %75 in most cases.  Right now, 5.56 NATO is being sold at 50 cents a round, I reload it for 15-18 cents a round.  I reload 5.56 NATO, 9mm Luger, .303 British, .30-06, 7mm-08, .221 Fireball, 9mm, .45 ACP, .44 Special, .44 Mag, .38 S&W, .38 Special, and.... ... ... .22-250 (I knew I was forgetting 1).

Get some reloading manuals and start reading.  Also, if you can watch it done a few times to help you get the hang of it I suggest you do so too.

[Gman]

Ammo must be secured in a separate locked compartment,so by the time you could get it into action it would be too late.

I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but I had to respond to this.

Morfiend, check the regulations carefully - If your firearms are stored in what the CFC calls a 'vault or safe' (they've never published specifications as to what a vault or safe is), you CAN store your ammunition and firearms in this safe/vault together.

From the RCMP's Firearms website:

Storing Firearms Safely

    Unload and lock your firearms!
    Store the ammunition separately or lock it up. It can be stored in the same locked container as the firearm.

In my new house I have a dedicated room for all my firearms/ammunition etc.  In one of my previous residences  I had a decent Remington vault with the combo key pad on the front, and I stored my firearms in there as well as my ammunition/magazines.  I know it's legal 100% as my roomate at the time was a firearms instructor with the RCMP at Depot at the time, and all his stuff was in there too.


Also, with regards to the time it takes to access a firearm for self defense in Canada:

Attach a secure locking device so the firearms cannot be fired and lock them in a cabinet, container or room that is hard to break into;OR
Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.

If you have your restricted firearms IE some "assault" type rifles and most handguns, you can store them in a safe/vault WITHOUT trigger locks, and WITH ammunition/magazines in the same said vault.  So, if you own a safe/vault with a quick access electronic locking mech, you can have your pistols locked open and loaded magazines right beside them, and be in full compliance with our ridiculous "safe storage   " laws.

Overall you're right though Morfiend, the laws here are a joke, and created by people who knew NOTHING about firearms or shooting which explains their inconsistency and ineffectiveness.



-Hijack over.


BTW: WIDEWING, Bank Miller was at sigarms when I first met him as well, he, Tim Connell, and Ben Kurata from SigArms came up here to Canada to help establish our adjunct Sigarms school, and I took my Sig armourers and instructor courses from them about the same time you were mentioning, about the very early 2000's.  Bank owns a company called action target, and is doing very well with it from what I understand.  He's also one of the better shooters with stock "combat" pistols I've seen.  I've seen him use a pistol with the sights pushed off it to shoot 6" steel falling plate targets at 25 yards like they were 2 feet in front of his face when demonstrating unsighted fire techniques.  Regarding the Sig Rifles you mentioned, us crazy canucks at our shop/range had a friend in the factory in Europe and circumvented the assault weapon import laws you guys have down there by bringing in 1500 Sig 550 551 and 552 rifles/carbines into Canada.  Then some of the receivers made it legally into the USA and "kit" forms of the rifles were then legal to possess and construct as I understand your laws (I'm a little hazy on how it all happened, but the ATF HATED us for a while as they had to alter some of their directives over all of this Sig rifle business).  For a stock rifle the Sig 550 is still my personal favorite for an out of the box weapon.  It combines all of the best features of several rifles out there, and adds excellent stock night sights and better than AK reliability, and incredible accuracy.  The models we sell in Canada come equipped with the highest quality 3-point sling I've yet seen, a 200$ freebie that is as thick as the old M60 slings almost.

About the only negative thing I can say about the Sig rifles is that the magzines have to be inserted using that 'cam' type rolling system that the AK and all of its variants use, which is a little slower than the Ar15/M4 style of magazine, but they do make an adapter for the SIG rifles to take Ar15 magazines (Pmags!!) .

The test targets for ALL of our rifles were 1 MOA or better at 300 meters, even the short barrel 552's had 10 round groups of just over 1 moa, all on a paper plate easily....incredible when you think of how short the barrels are.  If I could take only ONE rifle with me out of everything I have, it would be my Sig550 hands down.

[Becinhu]

I always preferred the .12 gauge pump with #6 shot for home defense. Of course that makes clean up a little more involved.....

I understand both sides of this "7 Yards" arguement.  For a tactical training aspect it is sound. I do believe Dago is speaking more along the lines of the guys at the range who were shooting at 7 yards probably left a shot grouping similiar to a .12 gauge at 30 yards.

[ink]

all this gun talk.........screw that just give me my Katana...or battle axe, and I am happy

I am a dinosaur I know

[Stoney]

I understand both sides of this "7 Yards" arguement.  For a tactical training aspect it is sound. I do believe Dago is speaking more along the lines of the guys at the range who were shooting at 7 yards probably left a shot grouping similiar to a .12 gauge at 30 yards.

Bottom line is that there's a case to be made both for pure marksmanship skills and tactical employment.  In an ideal world, for those fractions of a percent that will ever need to use a weapon in real life, neither should suffer in a complete training regimen.  That being said, for the weekend warrior who's just going out to shoot some stuff, enjoy the noise, and the smell of cordite, either skill set in isolation is absolutely acceptable.  Its their weapon, their ammo, and their range time.  

  

[SmokinLoon]

Like I said and I'll debate anyone who says otherwise: be proficient at all ranges that you and your gun are able to shoot.  Prone, I can put 5/5 shots from my Sig 226 into the FBI qualifying targets (big bowling pin shape).  We even trained at "too close for comfort" ranges: try grabbing the target stand with your off hand and firing from right above your holster.

and yes, the majority of the handgun engagements happen at less than 10 yards.  Always aim center mass at whatever is exposed.

[morfiend]

 Gman you are correct,I guess I didnt make myself clear but the point is it has to be unloaded and the ammo must be locked up sepperate!

 all of which makes it senseless to even consider.




   

[Shuffler]

I like our laws here in Texas. The debate still pops up about open carry every once in awhile but you still can't carry open.

[katanaso]

I like our laws here in Texas. The debate still pops up about open carry every once in awhile but you still can't carry open.

Florida is good too.

I'm on the fence regarding open carry.  I think we should have the option, but like anything, there are going to be a fair share of people who probably have no idea what they're doing.

Personally, I'd like the law so you can't get in touble for printing or accidentally showing while carrying concealed.

[Shuffler]

Yes in the summer it is harder to carry without a chance of printing or a flash.

[Rich52]

Pretty much the only interest I have left in training is in shooting/movement tactics. I have no interest in standing in shooting stalls and admireing my pretty groups be they 7 ot 50 yrds away. If I have to wait for an empty range and shoot far less then I'll do so. Drawing and moving front, back, side, to cover, to kneeling, my duty handguns, off duty handguns, and Patrol rifle. Movement and shooting/reloading from each hand/side in turn.

That standing at the shooting stall/admireing my pretty groups mindset has killed more good guys then jams. Its "plinking" and not "defensive training".