Author Topic: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.  (Read 1234 times)

Offline Noir

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A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« on: August 11, 2011, 06:20:17 AM »
When the 110 gets remodeled would it be possible to have a model suited for BOB, not a rare overpowered subversion?  :pray
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Offline Debrody

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 07:00:34 AM »
You mean the 110c is overpowered?
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Offline Noir

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 07:11:45 AM »
You mean the 110c is overpowered?

the 110C4-b is correctly modeled, but it has nothing to do in BOB!
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 07:53:00 AM »
the 110C4-b is correctly modeled, but it has nothing to do in BOB!
you're not serious are you?
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Offline Noir

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 07:54:38 AM »
you're not serious are you?

I'm dead serious, you find normal that the 110 outruns the spitfire MK1?
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 08:05:55 AM »
I suppose it depends upon the situation and circumstances...

http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
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Offline Debrody

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 08:09:52 AM »
Oooo only the "british" mossie (same class two-engined heavy fighter) can outrun the entire '44 luftwaffe?
Seriously. Im lazy to do your research. Plz get some data about which 110 was serving during the BoB, then post its top speed at various altitudes, then it may be changed.

Edit: according to Gonzo's charts, the spit1 is faster with wep, climbs better up to 13K, accelerates much better, turns tighter and quicker... what else you want?? LOL!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:16:49 AM by Debrody »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 08:13:36 AM »
I'm dead serious, you find normal that the 110 outruns the spitfire MK1?
you're seriously wrong. the 110-c models started out being escort fighters in the battle of britain, heavy losses from hurricanes and spits, which could out turn the 110, forced the germans to put them to different uses. the c4b model was the first fighter/bomber model, they used the db601-n engine 1050-1100hp each.
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Offline Noir

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 08:30:21 AM »
the c4b model was the first fighter/bomber model, they used the db601-n engine 1050-1100hp each.

isn't the BOB 110C4 supposed to have the DB-601A-1 engine?

The charts only tells one side of the story, a 110C4-B will bnz a spitfire mk1 quite easily.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:33:03 AM by Noir »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 08:35:06 AM »
isn't the BOB 110C4 supposed to have the DB-601A-1 engine?

The charts only tells one side of the story, a 110C4-B will bnz a spitfire mk1 quite easily.

Like I said, depending on circumstances or situation...

It is possible to catch a P-51D in a 109E if you catch the pony with his pants down...
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Offline Debrody

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 08:52:35 AM »
isn't the BOB 110C4 supposed to have the DB-601A-1 engine?

The charts only tells one side of the story, a 110C4-B will bnz a spitfire mk1 quite easily.
So... youre requesting for this: even tho the spit1 eats the 110c for breakfast, its still too über and you wanna degrade it, so it would have no chance even with an alt advantage.
Very nice. You have problems killing 110Cs in spits or what?
Btw. in the beginning of the BoB, there werent many spits. Have you heard about the Hurricane mk1 or the Gloster Gladiator? Also the DB-601N engine was ready in '40 Summer.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 08:55:42 AM by Debrody »
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Offline Noir

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 09:08:16 AM »
So... youre requesting for this: even tho the spit1 eats the 110c for breakfast, its still too über and you wanna degrade it, so it would have no chance even with an alt advantage.
Very nice. You have problems killing 110Cs in spits or what?
Btw. in the beginning of the BoB, there werent many spits. Have you heard about the Hurricane mk1 or the Gloster Gladiator? Also the DB-601N engine was ready in '40 Summer.

I'm not into trying to degrade anything. I flew the '08 BOB in a 110C4-b and we slaughtered pretty much anything that came our way, to the point that people didn't want to fly the BOB anymore. I just thought it would be nice to have the right plane for the event. Don't read too much in my posts because I'm a member of an allied squad, I like every plane equally.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 10:08:49 AM »
Noir that's a rather misguided attempt to fix problems with the BOB scenario. There are far bigger problems.

I think you read a claim on these forums and parroted it back. I don't think, however, the claim is all that noteworthy to begin with.

There WAS a variant of the 110C-4/B that had DB601N engines. These produced 1200 horsepower. The variant before this produced 1175 horsepower. Total (2 engines) of 50 extra horsepower. Not all that much. However, the 110C-4B had extra drag due to the bomb rack (the "/B" denotes it's capable of carrying bombs).

The small increase in horsepower was only to make up for the lost speed in drag. The 110C-4 and the 110C-4/B were almost the same top speeds. If you removed the draggy bomb rack it would only add about 15km/h.


However, there are a few things to note.

A number of sources say the top speed of the 110C-4 was about 348 or 349 at 22k. Ours makes about 345 at 19k.

This (citing 2 sources) shows 110c-4 top speed separate from 110c-4/b:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/fighters/messerschmitt-bf-110a-c.asp#p7TPMc1_7

Here we have airpages.ru, not always the best but in this case cites 3 different sources at the bottom:
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/bf110c.shtml
Note it says the engine type and speed of 560km/h, not too far off from what we have in-game.

Here we see AH's performance tops off a bit under 350 at 19K or so:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=110c4b
This is backed up by the current HTC charts available on the homepage:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=59&p2=-1&pw=2&gtype=0

I find this VERY strange since in older versions of AH charts supplied by HTC we found the FTH at about 23k or so. The Musketeers archived one of these on their website here:

http://www.musketeers.org/kumori/images/110c4speed.gif

Note that the speed didn't change, just the altitude it best reached that.

On ww2aircraft.net and LEMB there were some comments about 2 types of superchargers on the 110C. The "early" models topped out 4km (4000 meters altitude), and the later were 4.5km. It looks like we have been given the early FTH, but we have late-BOB full-powered spits and hurricanes with +12 boost and 100 octane fuel. Note that the 1100 hp version of the Bf110C was from 1939, as well. This was the same DB601A engine as found in the Me109, basically speaking.


In short: I think somebody read something on paper and freaked out, assuming that's what we had. I think the performance difference is minimal, even IF we had it. In fact, it looks like HTC hamstrung the 110C-4 at one point by lowering the FTH by some 4,000 feet. I don't recall when that happened!

Please consider this plane was a very very early introduction to the game. HTC made several compromises back then to enhance the planeset and include more functionality. We had a K-4 they named a G-10 just to give you more guns options. We had a hybrid typhoon. We had gunpods and bombs on the Bf109F-4. We had bombs on the Bf109E-4. We had a frankenstein Spit9. The P-47D-40 was really first named P-47D-30. Not all aircraft were 100% correct in their naming or their loadouts.

It's most likely they modeled a normal Bf110C-4 and added the /B on the name just because it has the central bomb rack, allowing this plane to perform over a much wider scenario time frame. A Bf110C-4 on the eastern front or in the desert would be nearly useless without its bomb load. HTC could get away with making combined capabilities back then. Today they have a much stricter adherence to specific types.

In short: Quit freaking out about the 110C-4. It looks right compared to all the references I see online. The DB601N issue is a snipe hunt in regards to BOB performance. The real problems are the Hurr1 overmodeling and the bombers being too fast for RAF fighters to chase.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 11:10:43 AM »
damn, i have to give krusty a  :aok

gonna be an ugly day... :joystick:
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: A valid 110 model for BOB, and a model revamp.
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 11:34:35 AM »
The real problems are the Hurr1 overmodeling and the bombers being too fast for RAF fighters to chase.

I completely agree with the bomber speeds, pretty much ruins BoB events. which is a shame because fuel restrictions for the 88s would solve it easily. adding the He111 and Do17 would help too :)

I wasnt aware there were issues with the Hurri I modelling, care to elaborate on that?
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