Darn jets

[MachFly]

Please educate me to the FAR that says you can not put fuel from one aircraft back into it, or another?

I'm not aware of anything in the FAR that specifically says that (at least from the top of my head), but I personally would not want to put fuel in my airplane that was already used somewhere.

[icepac]

I bought fuel from our FBO a long time ago in which someone had topped a plane that required 100/130 with something like 10 gallons in each tank.

I was told they could not just simply put this into a plane that used 80 because of the high lead content of the 100/130 so they sold a barrel of about 45 gallons to me for 20 bucks.

It helped that I worked there.

[PFactorDave]

I bought fuel from our FBO a long time ago in which someone had topped a plane that required 100/130 with something like 10 gallons in each tank.

I was told they could not just simply put this into a plane that used 80 because of the high lead content of the 100/130 so they sold a barrel of about 45 gallons to me for 20 bucks.

It helped that I worked there.

Nice deal!   

[Golfer]

Please educate me to the FAR that says you can not put fuel from one aircraft back into it, or another?

There isn't one.  There are however standards and procedures for FBOs and operators when it comes to treating the fuel removed during defueling operations as contaminated fuel.  Find an FBO that first actually HAS a truck that can be used to defuel because this happens so infrequently, many/most don't.  Then if you wanted to use it you'd have to test the fuel being removed from the aircraft, test the fuel in the truck, etc, etc. giant PITA.  It gets stuck in a tank somewhere and used to power diesel engines of the line guys and mechanics.

I believe the only operator I can think of that allows it are various branches of the military.  FBOs won't, at least the ones I've been involved with in several instances when it was required.  Also some operators prohibit it in the FOM/GOM.

It's the same reason that fuel trucks are controlled, fuel sumped for inspection each day and such.  I don't know what kind of little microbes or contaminants some random airplane has growing in it.  How long the airplane sat accumulating said growths.

Defueling procedures at the FBO I worked at involved a hand pump and putting the fuel in the sump tanks.  The one time I've needed the Lear defueled was after a load of passengers showed up for a flight to NY from Palm Beach.  They then said we needed to stop in Vero or Stuart or somewhere to pick up 2 more passengers.  Well, we needed to shed 225 gallons to make landing weight.  That fuel went into the defuel truck and the policy at that FBO (and others, universally I've experienced) is to not fuel aircraft from it because it's treated as contaminated fuel.

So rather than me finding you an FAR that doesn't exist, find me an operator/operation that does it.

[Bodhi]

We used to defuel when doing maintenance on tanks and put the fuel right back in.  It was defueled to a truck and that truck just pumped it into a new aircraft.  When we had the Beech 400's and were running ops with those, we defueled (like you to make landing wait) and we "gave" the fuel to another aircraft.  All the fuel goes through filters.  The chances of contaminants are minimal to non-existent when pulled from an operational aircraft and run back into another aircraft using a filtered pump.

Not to mention the warbird guys.  I have two 300 gallon drop tanks that are on carts that I use to defuel warbirds when doing maintenance as required by insurance (assinine requirement).  The fuel either goes right back in to the one it came out of or into another depending on the operational need.  We don't have fuel issues, we simply use pumps with filters. 

Just an interesting take that you would consider the fuel to be "contaminated" if the aircraft in question is operational.

[Tupac]

I got to help move a 50 gallon tank of AVGAS that came out of the schools Cessna 310 after they put it back into the hangar for an indefinite amount of time.

[Golfer]

I wouldn't think twice about it defueling my own aircraft into my own tank/truck to be honest.

Treating fuel taken from an aircraft during a defueling operation as contaminated fuel has been standard among 5 certificate holders, numerous FBOs, airline fuel vendors and such.  I'm trying to find a better answer than "because it is" so I put a few feelers out for proper guidance.

The policy can and has varied from private policies amongst companies/shops to FBOs to airlines.  Each time we've taken our airplane somewhere for a major inspection we try to do it on a clear blue day and land with VFR minimum fuel because once it's pumped out, it's gone.

I think my litmus test for whether or not it's okay is has all of the fuel in the airplane come from the place the fuel is being pumped to.  If we'd done a few flights on home fuel with none purchased on the road for example I'd be okay with it.  If I'm defueling my own airplane out of the tank in the bed of my truck, I'd be okay with it.

I can tell you for sure that the freshly topped off tanks from Signature PBI we needed lowered went into a separate truck that isn't to be used to fuel airplanes.  I also "know" (anecdotes I suppose) that fuel removed from airplanes can/is used by ARFF units for training which is generally where I'm told it goes.  ORD and DEN come to mind where I've seen them used as specific examples.  I've even seen the guys/gals at ORD training on their fuselage/aircraft fire trainer.  I'm glad they do.  I imagine some of it ends up in the tanks of diesel cars/trucks to whomever has access as well.

At any rate I'm looking for a better answer.  We'll see what the inbox reveals in the morning.  Night.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Incase yall were wondering, this is a practical joke between the 2 pilots that instruct in the cub. They go back and forth with jokes like this. The other instructor chocked Jordans car, so I guess this was Jordan getting back at him LOL

The really sad thing is that some people actually thought it was possible for a retard like that to pilot an airplane in the first place!

[icepac]

I used to work at signature IAD...........that was unbelievably busy....even at 3:15am.

[Golfer]

Since it was Signature PBI (my second home in winter) that couldn't defuel do you recall the FBO policy at IAD for defueling?

I got a response that involves the fuel cannot be resold once it's sold.  Meaning the fuel that someone pumped into the airplane has been purchased so if you suck it out it can't be resold.  That makes more sense than outright calling it contaminated but doesn't necessarily treat the end users treatment of said fuel.

Still trying to show my work but I imagine that's as good a reason as any when it comes to fuel retailers.

[icepac]

When I was at signature, we only had one defueling and it was some guy who accidently added about a gallon of 100ll to a pilatus turbo porter.

That fuel was stored until our environmental service provider could take it away.

My earlier reference happened in 1984 at dulles aviation.

[Golfer]

Thanks.

Bodhi,

Talking around it seems that it is case specific.  Some trucks don't filter when defueling so sucking the fuel from the airplane into the truck would in fact deem the fuel contaminated because you don't know what you're pulling.  This can also be a further complication if there is not a dedicated truck for the purpose as sucking any contaminated fuel into a partially full truck would then make the good fuel contaminated as well.  The mix of anti icing additive, Prist, etc can vary with requirements from aircraft to aircraft.  Some don't react well to Prist itself apparently and is not permitted.  Not the premix anti icing additive but the actual cans of product themselves.  I didn't know that but it comes from a Gulfstream driver who says it's an issue with his airplane.

Also a simpler explanation is that you didn't know the specifications of the fuel being sucked out of the airplane.  You didn't know it was Jet-A, where it was refined and had no paperwork on it so you couldn't have it for resale.  You could store it and use it in the ground equipment if the engines were tuned for it I guess (I know mechanics who do this) but it seems pretty universal it isn't put back into an airplane other than the one it came from.  That's not exactly practical if you're fueling up your one airplane and flying somewhere else.  Specifically it doesn't seem having a defuel kart that's cleaned and filtered that holds 50 gallons of avgas for a flight school is a bad thing but I'm not sure anyone would justify the expense when you're dealing with small volumes such as taking 10 gallons of avgas out of the airplane as opposed to throwing into the waste storage tanks.

A charter outfit would defuel one airplane and put it into another fleet aircraft but wouldn't/couldn't sell it to another aicraft.  Much like the situation you described in your experience.  That seems much much much much less common than simply calling the fuel contaminated and either storing it or using it elsewhere.  It doesn't cost an FBO any money (unless it was their error) to defuel since the gas was paid for.  When we defueled in PBI we had to pay an extra $0.25/gallon for the suck job as it were.  So they made money on both ends for fuel that wasn't burned.  Shrug.

I guess I learned that there was another way from simply calling it contaminated however it seems to be more common than not.

[icepac]

I work at the shop just off the west end of the runway 10r at PBI.

[Tupac]

oh lawds

[Golfer]

Is that the shop the owner of I think it's Big Sky aviation has also?  My coworker went down there to pay a bill while I was overseeing some other maintenance on our airplane and he saw numerous Corvettes of varying vintages and other such fun toys.

If you don't mind we'll look you up this year.  We practically live in PBI in the winter into April (10 out of 12 weekends last year) and my coworker races a C5 Convertible.  Now that he's back to being NA he runs the 11.50 index but when he was using spray ran comfortably in the 10's.

At any rate we'll figure something out.  We used to like karting up at PBIR until they jacked the prices through the roof last year.  We've rented one of the Hertz Corvettes and made passes in that as well.  We're on corvetteforum and we've been to a few cruise ins down there as well.