Author Topic: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater  (Read 4211 times)

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 06:49:15 PM »
Yes indeed. The IAF struggled with them during training, however the Mossies did well during the Suez crisis. The IAF also used nightfighter and recce Mosquitos as well.

I believe the very last Mossies to see action were with the IAF.

I was going to say, did it not count these? I know Dogfights isn't the greatest example for a historical source :uhoh, but part of the episode "Supersonic" details a couple fights of Lou Luma (an American in the RCAF) in the Mossie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJUDCRRR7yE

Offline bozon

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2011, 02:54:41 AM »
Yes indeed. The IAF struggled with them during training, however the Mossies did well during the Suez crisis. The IAF also used nightfighter and recce Mosquitos as well.

I believe the very last Mossies to see action were with the IAF.
The mossies were the first proper, single type squadron that the IAF had (and second overall). The previous one had an AH like setup: 109s (technically Avia S199), P-51s and Spits of various bastardized models. The fact that they were fighting C-205, Spits, Tempests and Furies made it even more AH like :)
The IAF had problems maintaining them - the heat and direct sun was not very healthy to the wood and there were not many available experts in such woodwork,  as opposed to welders and guys who know how to deal with a metal construction. The types of wood required are not available locally, while metal parts were scavenged from the streets of Tel Aviv. The IAF even learned to dogfight in them and pilots claimed that while it was not equal to the spit, it could hold its own. By the time of the Suez crisis in 1956, in the age of Mig15s and Dassault Mysteres, they were considered unfit for aerial combat, but still performed dangerous long range photo-recce missions.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2012, 05:17:53 PM »
Thanks to Dtango who saved me some legwork I have a pretty precise picture based on USAF 85 Victory Credits, mapping back to squadron level and pilots to ensure a breakout from sa P-47 to P-51 for 4th FG, or P-51 to P-47 to P-51 for 354th FG.

The numbers for ETO/USAAF ONLY 1942-May, 1945 - 8th and 9th AF
Spitfire 15.0
P38 452.0
P-47 2,658.4
P-51 4,179.2
P-61 128.0

The 'crossover' point for the transisition from P-47 to P-51 as dominant ETO fighter occurred from Big Week to Big B, February 20, 1944 through March 8, 1944.

Between Feb 20 and Feb 29 the Jug (all 8th and 9th AF P-47s combined) outscored the Mustang 140 to 64.5. From March 1 through March 8 the Mustangs (4 FG's, one with two days experience (355th), two with one and three weeks experience (357/4th) and one with three months (354FG) - outscored all 11 P-47 Groups (56, 78, 352, 353, 355(six days), 356, 358, 359, 361, 362, 365) - 108 to 86. 
By the end of March the tally for P-51s during March was 254 to 176 for the Jugs. April was 322 to 85 Mustang over P-47.

This does not include aircraft destroyed on the Ground by the P-51 in that period. From January through May the P-51 destroyed. count was 529 to 164.5 for the Jug

All in - 8th and 9th AF combined Jan 1 through May 31 leading up to control of the air over Normandy beaches
P-47 Destroyed 764.5 air and 164.5 ground.  The P-51 destroyed 1142.3 air and 529 ground

It was the end of May, 1944 when the Mustang passed the P-47 in total cumulative air victory credits in the ETO from the time the P-47 entered combat ops in ETO in March/April 1943 through May 1944.. with P-47s flying nearly 3.5x the sorties.

Thanks Dave - wading through the USAF 85 and fixing it to the on-line records at USAF HRC was real fun - but I wouldn't have started absent your real hard work!

Apologise for boring you guys with the stats
Regards,

Bill
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline icepac

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2012, 08:06:54 AM »
No a20 or b26 kills?

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2012, 09:07:15 AM »
No a20 or b26 kills?

There are none that I can find in USAF 85 for A-20/P-70 in nightfighter version and USAF 85 did Not bother with bomber claims.  The published doc was a complete scrub of all USAAF Fighter Victory Credits, and what was not published (on line) was the purpose of the study. 

The USAF in the 50's and 60's asked the question - what characteristics seprated the shooter/killers from the ones along for the ride..there were a lot of factors they tried to correllate such as older/younger brother, sport achievement, rural/city upbringing, education, etc.
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Rich52

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2012, 11:52:59 AM »
Didnt the USA fly Beau's in the Pacific too?
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Offline bozon

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 05:41:18 AM »
...
The 'crossover' point for the transisition from P-47 to P-51 as dominant ETO fighter occurred from Big Week to Big B, February 20, 1944 through March 8, 1944.
...
It was the end of May, 1944 when the Mustang passed the P-47 in total cumulative air victory credits in the ETO from the time the P-47 entered combat ops in ETO in March/April 1943 through May 1944.. with P-47s flying nearly 3.5x the sorties.
...
Thanks, very interesting statistics. I believe one major reason was that the LW tended not to engage the bombers till outside the escorts combat radius. In 1944 the Jug still could not reach Berlin and were flying back and forth part way, without engaging anything. The P51s escorted all the way and got to the fights. Just goes to show that the "best" fighter is not necessarily the better performing - its the one that shows up to the fight. See also F6F vs. F4U kills.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2012, 08:03:16 AM »
Thanks, very interesting statistics. I believe one major reason was that the LW tended not to engage the bombers till outside the escorts combat radius. In 1944 the Jug still could not reach Berlin and were flying back and forth part way, without engaging anything. The P51s escorted all the way and got to the fights. Just goes to show that the "best" fighter is not necessarily the better performing - its the one that shows up to the fight. See also F6F vs. F4U kills.

IMO - The best ETO fighter was still the P-51 in 1944, and it was able to demonstrate its attributes over Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia while flying out of England. I absolutely agree the difference maker between the Jug and the Mustang was range, but until the P-47M was introduced the 51B/D still had an overall performance edge from the deck to 24K.

I have studied this a lot - for a very long time and will devote some space on this subject in my new book.  I often wonder if the 56th FG, with its leadership and cadre of pilots would have reached 1000 with the 51.  They could have been the 1st P-47 group to change over the 355th and 4th and could have had them in late February.  Consider that the 357th scored 595.5 air credits in that same timeframe with very little combat experience when they started cmbat ops in mid February?

The Luftwaffe formed the strategy of engaging the central German defense forces primarily along the line Dummer Lake to Geissen to Frankfurt/Stuttgart so that the three ZG groups could their firepower into the battles.  JG26 and JG2 from LuftFlotte 3 were basically the first line of defense with a few units picking up the north Sea from western Germany and Holland out of Mitte and then Reich. 

When the 8th basically was stalled in October 1943 and started flying missions mostly within escort range of the 47s, the Jugs picked up the pace of scoring because some of those Me 110/210/410/Ju88 forces engaged, along with JG1, JG3 JG11, JG27.  When the 8th had two P-38 Groups (20th/55) gaining experience and the 354th Mustangs on loan, with the 357th ready and 352nd and 355th and 4th teed up for long range escort with 51s - they started and planned Big Week, then followed with Berlin with the idea of 1.) attacking the LW by virtue of going deep after the manufacturing, and 2.) going directly after the LW air to air to ensure control over Normandy in June.

The LW responded to the 8th by first a trickle of reinforcements from Ost and Sud fronts into LuftFlotte Reich(first Mitte), then a flood in February/March, drawing a balance of skilled leaders and experience into the fray, reaching a peak in April/May when guys like Rall were transferred.

It is that period in my opinion that the back of the Luftwaffe was broken - mostly by the Mustang as shown by the statistics - deep over central and eastern and southern Germany and Poland and Czechoslovakia.  There was no place the LW could retreat to from a 'sanctuary' airbase standpoint. The stuff I talked about didn't dwell on the effect of airfield strafing or catching the LW during take off/assembly - or RTB when the battle was 'over'.

Just opinion and we know what that is worth.

Regards,

Bill
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Brooke

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2012, 09:53:05 PM »
Zemke and some other P-47 pilots felt that the P-47 was what broke the back of the Luftwaffe based on the idea that the P-51 was introduced in numbers only after the allies had significant numerical superiority over the LW and that the P-47 was the majority fighter during the time when the numbers were even.  I haven't looked up any numbers one way or the other -- just repeating what I have read and heard from some P-47 pilots.

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 06:45:32 AM »
Zemke and some other P-47 pilots felt that the P-47 was what broke the back of the Luftwaffe based on the idea that the P-51 was introduced in numbers only after the allies had significant numerical superiority over the LW and that the P-47 was the majority fighter during the time when the numbers were even.  I haven't looked up any numbers one way or the other -- just repeating what I have read and heard from some P-47 pilots.

The problem with the observation is that P-47s weren't engaging with the bulk of Luftwaffe pilots and crews over central and eastern Germany/Poland/Czechoslovakia... they were turning back at Munster, Frankfurt, etc and the LW from LuftFlotte Reich was having their way with the 8th AF BC.

Zemke was a fantastic leader but the Luftwaffe almost shut down 8th AF strategic daylight ops in October 1943, and the Jug could do zero to change that. As to numerical 'superiority' of the Mustang when 'it' broke the back of the LW - the numbers I showed above from Big Week through May, 1944 were achieved by Mustangs when only a few groups were equipped by P-51s in contrast to the P-47s.  During that timeframe when the Jug was relegated to flying to and from England to Frankfurt and Dummer Lake, the big battles were being fought over Munich, Berlin, Posnan, Merseburg, Misburg, Magdeburg, Brunswick, Brux, Kassel, Halberstadt, etc.

To restate the case.  Big Week starting on Feb 20, 1944 was the 8th AF push to destroy the LW and gain control of the air over Normandy for the Invasion.  At this time the 354th FG had been operating 80 days and had achieved their first 100 victory credits, faster than the 56th FG, in their first 80 days.  At this time the 357th FG had been operational for a week. At this time some Mustangs were dribbling into the 355th for transition training. So, 11 P-47 Groups, Two Lightning Groups and two new Mustang groups begin the campaign to prove that daylight strategic bombing could work.

Two weeks after Big Week started, the 4th and 355th FG were operational in Mustangs.  On March 8th the combined four groups of Mustangs had destroyed more German aircraft than all the P-47s in the 8th and 9th AF on that day, and from that point forward the combined P-47 and P-38 Groups in 8th and 9th AF never again scored more air victories than the Mustang Groups.  So, the statement that the Mustang 'only achieved by overwhelming numbers' is flat wrong.

Further, the combined Mustang/P-38 long range escorts didn't grow to a point where TWO fighter groups could be assigned as target escort from say Dummer Lake to Posnan Poland and back for any One bomb division of 250-350 heavy bombers over a 30 mile string (on a good day).  Do you suppose they 'heaviliy outnumbered the Luftwaffe' in these examples through May?

Emphasis - By the end of May,1944 (pre D-Day), the Mustang had by then destroyed more LW aircraft in the air than ALL of the 8th and 9th AF P-47s had from the beginning of the P-47 operations in March-April 1943.  Three months of operations.

The Jug was relegated to providing set up services inbound to west Germany and outbound from West Germany until the arrival of the P-47D-25 with wet wing, starting in July when the major conversions from P-47 (and P-38) to Mustang was in full stride.

The historical context of the Battle for Germany must be set with the context of battles over France, Holland and western fringe of Germany (P-47 vs JG26 and JG2 primarily in LuftFlotte 3) versus battles over all the rest of Germany and Poland and Czechoslovakia (LuftFlotte Reich) where the P-47 couldn't go.
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 06:54:26 AM »
Zemke and some other P-47 pilots felt that the P-47 was what broke the back of the Luftwaffe based on the idea that the P-51 was introduced in numbers only after the allies had significant numerical superiority over the LW and that the P-47 was the majority fighter during the time when the numbers were even.  I haven't looked up any numbers one way or the other -- just repeating what I have read and heard from some P-47 pilots.

Brooke - the one simple point that I wanted to make is that the Mustang achievements were made when they were GREATLY outnumbered by both P-47s and the LW in the first half of 1944.  The P-47 FG's assigned to provide escort during that time included not just the 8th AF Jugs but also the 9th AF P-47s.

During March the heavy lifting of long range escort duty included the four Mustang Groups plus the 3 Lightning groups, but the 38 unfortunately didn't contribute up to its potential and at that time wasn't going past Berlin or as far as Munich - During April the 352nd converted mid month (so the 352nd was contributing to P-47 scores through that time), then in May the 339th, 359th and 361st added to Mustang strength.

If you do the math you will see that your reference to Jug pilot memories may have been a little hazy regarding the 'numbers' and the timing of Mustang impact to the LW.
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 08:00:39 AM »
If you do the math you will see that your reference to Jug pilot memories may have been a little hazy regarding the 'numbers' and the timing of Mustang impact to the LW.


I don't have the figures with me, will try to check later.  Fuzzy memory suggests that the bulk of P-51 kills began in late April of 1944 (and they clearly were romping in May).  The question is whether the Battle of Germany had essentially been won before then.  One way to judge this is by the quantity of aerial opposition to 8th AF missions, which I believe fell way off after the early March Berlin raids.  Through that time the P-47s' kills were far greater than the P51s' (not necessarily pound-for-pound, but total kills).

That's if memory correctly serves.

I fall in with Brooke's recollection, which might be summarized as "the 47s killed most of the tough guys, then the 51s cleaned up on the kids."

- oldman

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 08:45:12 AM »

I don't have the figures with me, will try to check later.  Fuzzy memory suggests that the bulk of P-51 kills began in late April of 1944 (and they clearly were romping in May).  The question is whether the Battle of Germany had essentially been won before then.  One way to judge this is by the quantity of aerial opposition to 8th AF missions, which I believe fell way off after the early March Berlin raids.  Through that time the P-47s' kills were far greater than the P51s' (not necessarily pound-for-pound, but total kills).

That's if memory correctly serves.

I fall in with Brooke's recollection, which might be summarized as "the 47s killed most of the tough guys, then the 51s cleaned up on the kids."

- oldman

The impressions would be incorrect for multiple reasons:

The Jugs (8th and 9th combined including 358th and 362nd) destroyed 244.5 to 71 from January 1 through Feb 19 (all 354FG-9th AF).

The Jugs were credited with 316 from Feb 20 (Big Week) through 3/31, Mustangs in four groups, (three very short term operationally) destroyed 318.5.  These P-51 scores included the 4th, 355th and 357th with the 4th and 355th contributing only after March 3.

In April, the Jugs were credited with 85 and the 51s were credited with 322.7. It was in April that the Mustang CUMULATIVELY destroyed more ETO a/c in the air than all the P-47 FG's in the 8th and 9th AF during 1944. It was at the end of May when the Mustangs destroyed more than All the P-47s credits for 1943 through May 1944 Cumulatively.

Next, The P-47s weren't killing the 'tough guys' that were killing the B-17 and B-24 crews out of range of the Jug (MOST of the Tough Guys) eastward from the Munster/Hannover line.  Having said this, the guys the Jugs were chewing up had defended very well against the RAF and USAAF over Holland, North Sea, France and Belgium as well as western Germany - but the guys in Central Germany where the bombers had to go were crushing the 8th AF BC deep penetrations.

The Jugs were hurting JG26 and JG2 (mostly) during Penetration and Withdrawal Support, but the Mustang was killing the LuftFlotte Reich guys chartered with defending Brunswick, Berlin, Kassel, Freidrichshafen, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, etc and all the reinforcements flooding in from the East and MTO.

Last - while not affecting pilot strength, the Mustangs were chewing up the LW on the ground as well as rail, road and canal traffic on the way home - compounding logistics to and from airfields to bring LW Gruppe's up to strength.

We can agree to disagree which is what these debates are all about and I do respect your opinion - I once heldd a similar view until I started diving into the separation of Lowlands battles from Germany battles to get control prior to D-Day
Nicholas Boileau "Honor is like an island, rugged and without shores; once we have left it, we can never return"

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 09:20:26 AM »
Oldman and Brooke -

It bears repeating that the source of the above statistics include 8th AF Victory Credits Board - Sept 1945, the USAF Combat Victory Credits - 1985 and all the microfilm squadron histories cross referenced to Freeman's Mighty Eighth to get the transition dates for P-47/38 to Mustangs in 1944. For whatever it is worth, USAF 85 is a scrub of 8th AF VCB to remove double entries.  Having said that, there were a significant number of credits claimed but never decided in April/May 1945 that didn't get processed by the 8th and 9th AF when the war ended suddenly and the VCB was a little lax in processing them.

In all my data base has over 6800 line items for 7432.55 victory credits for just the ETO - does not include bomber gunner claims.

In other words I didn't just make this stuff up.

The numbers I just threw out for the forum is a compilation derived from every Victory Credit for every approved ETO Claim for every fighter pilot in every squadron from Sept 1942 through May 8, 1945 as the standard accepted by the USAF HRC..

It is an important result (in time devoted) of over 30 years of deep dive into ETO Fighter Ops including 9th AF and various MTO units that received an ETO credit during the invasion of Southern France and afterwards.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:43:12 AM by drgondog »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Interesting Stats on US Fighter Kills by Aircraft and Theater
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2012, 10:38:52 AM »
You raw statistics are great. The problem is that raw statistics do not show the real story.

What happened did not happen because of the change in aircraft. It happened because of a change in leadership and the attending change in tactics. And no, the change in aircraft is not what allowed the change in tactics.

The 8th AF could have been providing long range escort of deep penetration bombing raids from the beginning. They specifically chose not to. The 8th AF was good at compiling statistics. They turned thousands of young men into statistics, needlessly, between September of 1942 and February of 1944.

First, they sent their long range fighter to North Africa, and the Mediterranean. They kept the short legged P-47 in Europe, and moved the P-38. They were convinced that heavy bombers did not require escorts. Second, they remained convinced until late 1943. The 8th AF leadership was incompetent at best, myopic and negligent is probably a far more apt description.

No real effort was made to equip the P-47 with enough fuel capacity to provide long range escort until it was almost too late. Further, the 8th AF did not request a significant number of P-38's, either.

As an aside, if the 8th AF leadership had been competent enough, and influential enough, they probably could have made enough demand for long range fighters that the P-38 would have been properly second sourced. Instead, they only managed to use up B-17's fast enough that Lockheed was using 50% of the Burbank plant to produce B-17's for the 8th AF to get trashed due to their grossly mismanaged efforts. Double the number of long range escorts would have cut the bomber losses enough that the B-17's coming from Burbank would not have been needed.

How completely shortsighted was the 8th AF? Well, you mentioned the 20th and 55th Fighter Groups. Those two groups went operational in the weeks after "Black Thursday". Despite their inexperience, both in the air and on the ground, which resulted in 20% of their strength never leaving the ground, and then as much as 40% of those that did being early returns, they cut bomber losses to fighters dramatically. Often with as few as a dozen P-38's making the whole trip. Those two groups went operational in 1/3 the time normally allotted, in October and November of 1943. There should have been, and could have, been a dozen such fighter groups operational as early as the first quarter of 1943, considering that the P-47 could have been fitted with drop tanks, if anyone had been so intelligent as to request it with any authority.

What happened in late 1943 and early 1944 is that the leadership changed, and the tactics, even the reason for the very existence of the 8th AF changed. The 8th AF went from an air force trying to bomb German assets on the ground, to an air force dedicated 100% to taking control of the sky over Europe. The bombers were merely bait, a reason for fighters to be all over the skies. Sure, they dropped a lot of bombs, about 1/2 of which, or more, missed their targets. But they drew enemy fighters, which, forced to engage the bombers, became vulnerable to fighters.

It wasn't the P-51 itself, which by the way suffered massive teething issues (stick reversal at low speed, fouled plugs, cracked cylinder heads, etc) that were covered by the existence of other fighters in decent numbers. It was the fact that guys like Doolittle decided they were going to cleanse the sky of German aircraft. You could have hung drop tanks on any competent fighter aircraft in decent numbers with decent pilots in the cockpit in place of the "famous" P-51 and done exactly the same thing.

The P-51 was given every advantage. They did only segmented escort, they weren't, for the most part, tasked with escorting bombers for an entire mission. They were sent directly to a rally point, where they were handed bombers to loosely escort for certain legs of a mission. The P-51 did not handle the entire missions, nor were they tied to close escort on most of their missions. The replacement P-51 pilots were sent to "clobber college", the forerunner of the "Top Gun" type schools.

It is always amusing to see the P-51 attributed such magical powers as "the first long range escort fighter" and "the fighter that beat the Luftwaffe". It was a complete change of leadership, and the attending change in tactics, that made it possible to completely defeat Germany in the air. Had the P-51 been introduced, and then tied to the same doctrine and tactics that the P-47 and P-38 had been tied to, "Operation Big Week", and more importantly, "Operation Overlord" would never have been possible. The war in Europe might have dragged on another year or more.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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