Carrier bombers given drones

[Pigslilspaz]

whats the point to even up them off the deck if carrier fighters carry more ords and guns?

I'm pretty sure dive bombers had/have longer range.

[AKP]

whats the point to even up them off the deck if carrier fighters carry more ords and guns?

TBM - 6 rockets
       - 2000 lbs of bombs
       - 3 .50s
       - 1 .30

F4U-1D - 8 rockets being 2 more than the TBMs
            - As much lbs of bombs as the TBMS (2,000)
            - 6 .50s being twice that of the TBMs
            - overall higher speed than the tbm
 

The F4U-1D along with the F6F being the rather more common Naval fighters in the game already give the TBM and SBD and other bombers no chance what so ever and these are not even the best fighters out of the options, theres still perked planes. And even still against The large ENY planes like A6M2S and F4F's they still have little chance of survival. By giving the bombers drones i would imagine we would see much more activity with them do to the fact they would have more total ord than a single fighter and better defencive gunning than being single. Thoughts? Add ons? suggestions?

  

You left off one important difference about the TBM... I dont recall ever seeing an F4U or F6F carrying a torpedo... which was what the TBM was originally designed to do.  

Also... you cant compare the SBD to the F4U-1D...  the 1D was a much later model aircraft.  At the time the SBD was put into service, the primary naval fighter was the F4F... and it was JUST a fighter, and top of the line at that!  Even when the F4U did come out, its early models were intended for air to air roles.

What causes some confusion... is that in the Late War arena, you have aircraft like the SBD that were designed for Early War use, still available and being used in a Late War setting.  In "real life"... these aircraft were obsolete and no longer being used in front line combat... if at all.

To see the SBD and TBM really be effective, you need to see them in use in Early War, or in FSO... where they are flying with and against aircraft from their same time period.

So no... we dont need formations for naval bombers.  They just need to be used in the settings they were intended to be used in.

[Tank-Ace]

Give formations to naval level-bombers that were also based on ground instilations. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to disable formations from CV's given the miriad of other things we can adjust and limit.

[AKP]

Give formations to naval level-bombers that were also based on ground instilations. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to disable formations from CV's given the miriad of other things we can adjust and limit.

The only thing a formation of SBD's or TBM's or B5N's will do is limit the maneuverability of the pilot (so he doesnt lose his drones)... and give the attacking fighter 3 kills instead of 1.  Not to mention, dive bombers would lose their drones almost instantly when they start their dive.  TBM's would stay in formation... and be 3 easy kills.   Heavy and Medium bombers are different.  They have enough firepower to make formations a nasty thing to attack if you arent careful.  

You saddle up behind a formation of B17's dead six, and you are asking to be sent back to the tower.  You may get one... but unless you attack from the sides, top, or front, you are not making it back in the air.

Now... you saddle up  behind a formation of SBD's...  first of all, there is ONE gun position, and if you are dead six behind him, his gun wont fire... the other two planes will, but the one wont.  And... 1 burst into the tail of an SBD or TBM and its all over.  So with 2 more bursts, the other two go down.

These planes have their uses as they are.  Learn to use them that way.  We dont need more formations... in fact we could probably do with less.

[SmokinLoon]

I vote YES to allow formations to the B5N and TBM.  Those 2 make perfect sense in having formations enabled.   

[AKP]

I vote YES to allow formations to the B5N and TBM.  Those 2 make perfect sense in having formations enabled.  

...and watch while the number of kills against them go up by at least a factor of 3.  Ok... I will grant you a TBM is a pig.  It cant maneuver anyway.  So why not hand the fighter pilot chasing him 2 extra kills for nothing?  They are the most popular girl at the dance anyway when they show up... everyone goes running after them shouting "MINE MINE MINE".  The only bird more popular than the TBM is a Goon.

But the only defensive asset the B5N has going for it, is that it can out maneuver almost any aircraft in the game.  Put it in a formation, and he will be handing the fighter pilot 2 kills just so he can ditch his drones and maneuver the one.

[Tank-Ace]

It also triples the ordnance they can carry. It would be usefull for many Special Events.

I don't get your resistance to this. It can't be any harder than adding anything new, and likely it would be easier than most things they're considering adding.

[AKP]

I get that it triples the amount of ordinance.  But I dont think its needed.  For special events there are always plenty of people who will take up a navy bomber off the deck, and in the case of FSO, they are assigned to them.  So there is plenty of ordinance to put on the target anyway.

Here are my objections:

1) Easy Mode for those flying the bomber... and the false sense that they are actually going to be able to use a formation to fight off attackers.  Naval attack aircraft were meant to be escorted by naval fighters.

2) Easy Mode for the fighters attacking them.  It takes 1 or 2 seconds to down a TBM, SBD, B5N, or D3A if you saddle up on them.  Put them in a formation and you make doing that even easier, and you are giving the attacker more to shoot at.

3) None of these are late war planes.  The OP was comparing them to an F4U-1D... which is a Late War plane... and performed not only air to air missions, but ground attack as well... and did it VERY well.  But to compare them to LW birds is just not a fair comparison.  They are all EW birds.  If flown against other EW birds, they DO stand a chance, and DO carry more ordinance than their Early War naval fighter counterparts.... which in most cases was NONE.

4) His reasoning for "fixing" this is flawed... and in fact, its not broken at all.  Short answer... dont use TBM's and SBD's in LW unless you expect to not make it back.  Use them in EW and you have a good chance of hitting your target, AND making it home.

[Tank-Ace]

1) Easy Mode for those flying the bomber... and the false sense that they are actually going to be able to use a formation to fight off attackers.  Naval attack aircraft were meant to be escorted by naval fighters.

No more easy mode than a formation of any other bombers. IIRC, HTC added the formation to compensate when they ended the bomb-sight staying calibrated through manuvers and changes in speed. So again, no more easy mode than any other bombers.

As to the false sense of security: Boston III  .

2) Easy Mode for the fighters attacking them.  It takes 1 or 2 seconds to down a TBM, SBD, B5N, or D3A if you saddle up on them.  Put them in a formation and you make doing that even easier, and you are giving the attacker more to shoot at.

Boston III, G4M

3) None of these are late war planes.  The OP was comparing them to an F4U-1D... which is a Late War plane... and performed not only air to air missions, but ground attack as well... and did it VERY well.  But to compare them to LW birds is just not a fair comparison.  They are all EW birds.  If flown against other EW birds, they DO stand a chance, and DO carry more ordinance than their Early War naval fighter counterparts.... which in most cases was NONE.

Well give them formations in Late War (when they were being used as light land-based bombers) but not in EW.

4) His reasoning for "fixing" this is flawed... and in fact, its not broken at all.  Short answer... dont use TBM's and SBD's in LW unless you expect to not make it back.  Use them in EW and you have a good chance of hitting your target, AND making it home.

Giving drones to carrier bombers when they up from an airfield won't make them any more effective. Every other land-based bomber has drones, B5N's were flown in formation from land bases. Therefor they should have drones when flying from airfields.

[Rino]

     You can post pictures of formations all day long, doesn't mean they attacked in them.  If you want to get a
bunch of guys to the same place at roughly the same time, you fly in formation.  That way only one guy really
needs to know where they're going 

[AKP]

No more easy mode than a formation of any other bombers. IIRC, HTC added the formation to compensate when they ended the bomb-sight staying calibrated through manuvers and changes in speed. So again, no more easy mode than any other bombers.

Well give them formations in Late War (when they were being used as light land-based bombers) but not in EW.

Giving drones to carrier bombers when they up from an airfield won't make them any more effective. Every other land-based bomber has drones, B5N's were flown in formation from land bases. Therefor they should have drones when flying from airfields.

To your first point... that wasnt the only reason formations were added.  Formations were added for medium and heavy bombers with multiple engines to simulate on a small scale the larger box formations that strategic bombers flew in.  The naval bombers were never used in this role, even when flown from land bases... they were used in a tactical role.

To your second point... WHY?  Again... if flown in the era they are intended, in the manner they are intended... they work just fine.

To your third point...  Every other land based MULTI ENGINED BOMBER has drones.  Not one single engined bomber does.  The reason is simple... they may fly to a target in formation (just like fighters do) but they rarely... if ever... performed simultaneous pinpoint drops like the heavies did.  (nice pics by the way   )  This type of single engined bomber attacked targets individually... even though more than one plane may have been attacking the same target.

But back to my original argument...  To compare a TBM or an SBD to a F4U-1D is pointless.  And I have already stated the reasons why.  There is no vaild reason to give formations to single engined naval attack planes... land based or not.  And "because the other bombers have them" is not a reason.  

Look.. you arent going to move on your position... and Im not going to move on mine.  Either way it doesnt matter.  If HTC gets a wild hair and gives them formations for some baseless, non-historically proven reason... so be it.  It's their yard... we just all play in it.

"And that's all I have to say about that."

[Squire]

I would like to see an option as well for naval torpedo/lvl bombers like the TBM and B5N having formations mainly for SEA use but of course for the MA too. Not dive bombers though.

[Shifty]

    You can post pictures of formations all day long, doesn't mean they attacked in them.  If you want to get a
bunch of guys to the same place at roughly the same time, you fly in formation.  That way only one guy really
needs to know where they're going  

Actually the killing blow on the USS Arizona was from a B5N in formation level bombing.

From the Osprey Website.

In the first wave 21 of the 49 800kg high altitude bombs scored direct hits on the battleships USS Arizona, California, Maryland, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and West Virginia; three more damaged the USS Oklahoma with near misses. The Japanese pilots targeting battleships had a 43% accuracy rate, 49% including near misses. In either case, the Nakjima B5N 'Kate's' level bombing was far better than predicted and much better than the 13%-14% achieved before intensive training. Aichi D3A1 'Vals' in the first wave carried 250kg bombs and dive-bombed the airfields.


http://www.ospreypublishing.com/articles/world_war_2/when_it_counted/

B5Ns also used high altitude formation bombing attacks against Dutch Harbor Alaska as well as against the Dutch Navy off Java. Also Wake and Midway Islands.

[Tank-Ace]

Aww.... Shifty beat me too it. Thanks a lot shifty  .


Anyway, the B5N was used to level bomb targets in formation. The Arizona is a good example. It was also based on land, not just CV's. There is no real, solid argument against this aside from "well they're single engined, so they shouldn't have formation". And we all know thats not much of an argument.


Infact, you can clearly see in the last picture I posted that the B5N is carrying bombs, while flying in formation.

[Karnak]

Largely due to this thread I flew the B5N2 on a couple missions last night, striking towns.

First mission the town had been hit and my 250kg bomb only got four buildings.  I was intercepted by a P-47M before I reached my second target.  He got a pilot wound on me in the first pass, I dodged the second, but came out of a wound induced blackout just in time to see him in position behind me. 1.6 perk points.

Second flight I took a Ju87D-3 with an 1800kg bomb.  I was intercepted short of the target by a Ki-84 who inflicted a pilot wound on his first pass.  I was still short of the base, made a desperate attempt to reach bombing range and tried to fling the bomb towards the hangars I was lined up on as I slid into a wound induced blackout.  Ki-84 shot me down while blacked out. 0 perk points.

Third flight I took a B5N2 up to 20,000ft, where it is VERY unhappy; my climb rate had dropped to 300ft/min.  I bombed a Knit town, inflicting light damage and proceeded to a second town, where I decided to use my two remaining bombs.  Damage was heavier, but I was over focused on the target and was shot down by an F4U immediately after the bombs hit.  14 perk points.

A bit frustrated I decided to take up a formation of G4M1s and good gods but the G4M1 felt like a wonder of capability after the B5N2 and Ju87D-3 flights, climbing much faster, flying much faster and at least having the 20mm tail gun.  In the event I was, however, not intercepted.  Bombed four town centers and landed with 40 minutes of fuel remaining.  71 perk points.


You really wouldn't think anything would make you appreciate the G4M1, but it really is possible.