Stuka Pilot. excellent book. link included.

[pervert]

A heroic Nazi that cannot be right!  they are the bad guys remember? In films they are never heroic! And films don't lie! We should start a campaign to find out the truth about this rudel! Most likely the Russians were having an unarmed  tank display for children and this swine swooped in and killed them that way, plus strafing screaming parents and their kids just because he was evil! 

The final scene has Stalin cradling a dead tot weeping asking 'why?' and swearing to get rudel for being a swine! 

[pervert]

 

Rudel always struck me as a self promoter, as many "Heros" often are. To me Hartman was the Polar opposite as a man and an airman.

Instead leading his group on one last flight to Yank lien routeoute to a literary retirement of ease among other sympathizers?

Hartmann was turned over to the Russians he done the same as rudel he then spent 10 years in a soviet pow camp, he was a hero because after the war he was no longer a Nazi

[LCADolby]

Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: [clears throat] I'm not very interested in propaganda.

[Masherbrum]

A heroic Nazi that cannot be right!   they are the bad guys remember? In films they are never heroic! And films don't lie! We should start a campaign to find out the truth about this rudel! Most likely the Russians were having an unarmed  tank display for children and this swine swooped in and killed them that way, plus strafing screaming parents and their kids just because he was evil!  

The final scene has Stalin cradling a dead tot weeping asking 'why?' and swearing to get rudel for being a swine!  

Stalin = I say "Katyn" and think of the POS no more.    
Rudel = went overboard embellishing (more so than usual), but his "fanaticism" was crystal clear.    

It's that simple for me and I can give a rat's posterior.

[pervert]

Stalin = I say "Katyn" and think of the POS no more.    
Rudel = went overboard embellishing (more so than usual), but his "fanaticism" was crystal clear.    

It's that simple for me and I can give a rat's posterior.

Are you saying that rudel's fanaticism made him more prone to telling lies? Where in this book do you believe he has went overboard with the facts? Or do you doubt that an unrepentant Nazi could have achieved these feats, where as for example hartmann is generally well received and believed because he wasn't really a Nazi after the war ended?

[SmokinLoon]

I get a kick out of the knee-jerk responses regarding Nazi party members.  Nazi does not automatically mean "bad person". It is sad to know that most have no clue of the origins of the party, only the populist view of what it became once Hitler transformed it into what he wanted.  The Nazis of 1930 were very different than the Nazis in 1942-45, and even of today. 

With that being said, please do not confuse what I just said with my own personal opinions of the Nazis, they are two different things.

[Guppy35]

I get a kick out of the knee-jerk responses regarding Nazi party members.  Nazi does not automatically mean "bad person". It is sad to know that most have no clue of the origins of the party, only the populist view of what it became once Hitler transformed it into what he wanted.  The Nazis of 1930 were very different than the Nazis in 1942-45, and even of today. 

With that being said, please do not confuse what I just said with my own personal opinions of the Nazis, they are two different things.

Just finished reading a book written in 1938 called "Defying Hitler"  It's an amazing book in that as a German living through the time he describes to growth of Nazism and Hitler.  His commentary on Germans, as a fellow German is not nearly so forgiving.  It was not written after the war or in retrospect which makes it that much more fascinating as he's predicting WW2.  A most interesting comment from the book jumped out at me as it describes the Rudel's of the world to a T.  Again this wasn't written postwar, and the words are of a German watching this all unfold around him.

"As Bismarck once remarked in a famous speech, courage is in any case a rare virtue in Germany, but it deserts a German completely the moment he puts on a uniform.  As soldiers and officer, he is indisputably and outstandingly courageous on the field of battle.  He is usually even prepared to open fire on his own compatriots if ordered to do so.  Yet he is as timid as a lamb at the though of opposing authority."

It was an amazing little book and really changed some of my preconceptions about the growth of the Nazi party and it's taking over in Germany.  They were never the good guys.

[Krusty]

I get a kick out of the knee-jerk responses regarding Nazi party members.  Nazi does not automatically mean "bad person".

To join the nazi party was to align yourself explicitly with the ideals of white supremecy and the war-mongering arian nation.

There was no positive side to it. It was a party started by and for Hitler, for all intents and purposes. Being part of the Nazi party means being slightly fanatical or possibly sychophantic for Hitler himself.

I cannot agree with you on your comment.


Edit:

Conversely, don't get me wrong, many pilots and soldiers were "German" and not Nazi. You could serve the country RUN by the Nazi party, without actually joining the party, if you see my distinction?

[pervert]

it describes the Rudel's of the world to a T. 

What exactly does this mean?? please explain and yes I have read your quote but I fail to see the relevance to Rudel's situation, are you saying Rudel was a coward for believing in and fighting for his beliefs? Rather than say, going against his superiors to fight for your beliefs or western beliefs??

Why don't you just say you don't believe his stories or respect his actions because he was a Nazi? It would save a lot of time and book quotes 

[Dead Man Flying]

"As Bismarck once remarked in a famous speech, courage is in any case a rare virtue in Germany, but it deserts a German completely the moment he puts on a uniform.  As soldiers and officer, he is indisputably and outstandingly courageous on the field of battle.  He is usually even prepared to open fire on his own compatriots if ordered to do so.  Yet he is as timid as a lamb at the though of opposing authority."

The Milgram experiment comes to mind when reading this.  Acquiesence to authority isn't a uniquely German trait.

[Karnak]

A heroic Nazi that cannot be right!  they are the bad guys remember? In films they are never heroic! And films don't lie! We should start a campaign to find out the truth about this rudel! Most likely the Russians were having an unarmed  tank display for children and this swine swooped in and killed them that way, plus strafing screaming parents and their kids just because he was evil! 

The final scene has Stalin cradling a dead tot weeping asking 'why?' and swearing to get rudel for being a swine! 

Stalin's existence neither excuses nor justifies Rudel's.

[Guppy35]

The Milgram experiment comes to mind when reading this.  Acquiesence to authority isn't a uniquely German trait.

Totally agree.  It was just such a surprise to read it in a book written in 1938 by a German man watching the world around him cave in.

[Guppy35]

What exactly does this mean?? please explain and yes I have read your quote but I fail to see the relevance to Rudel's situation, are you saying Rudel was a coward for believing in and fighting for his beliefs? Rather than say, going against his superiors to fight for your beliefs or western beliefs??

Why don't you just say you don't believe his stories or respect his actions because he was a Nazi? It would save a lot of time and book quotes 

I've already said that.  Folks keep trying to convince me otherwise.  When I was 13 or so I was at my uncle's house and found a book on his shelves called "The Murderer's Among Us"  about Simon Wiesenthall.  One of the chapters describes a German Army Feldwebel named Anton Schmid and his actions in 1942.  After seeing the ongoing annihilation of 80,000 Jews in the Wilna Ghetto, he knew as a human being he had to do something.  He began smuggling in food and milk for the children.  He ultimately was discovered by the Gestapo and sentenced to death for trying to help five people escape the Ghetto.  In one of his last letters to his wife he'd written the following.  "Everybody must die someday.  One can die as an executioner or a helper.  I want to die as a helper."

That kind of person inspires me.  Rudel was an executioner knowing full well what he was fighting for.  He too made his choice.  That doesn't inspire me.

That you think this is just because he was a Nazi, I'll give another example.

Look up the My Lai Massacre, and the name Hugh Thompson.  Some consider him a hero, others a villain for his actions that awful day.  I consider him a hero and inspiring.  You tell me what you think of him.

[pervert]

I've already said that.  Folks keep trying to convince me otherwise.  When I was 13 or so I was at my uncle's house and found a book on his shelves called "The Murderer's Among Us"  about Simon Wiesenthall.  One of the chapters describes a German Army Feldwebel named Anton Schmid and his actions in 1942.  After seeing the ongoing annihilation of 80,000 Jews in the Wilna Ghetto, he knew as a human being he had to do something.  He began smuggling in food and milk for the children.  He ultimately was discovered by the Gestapo and sentenced to death for trying to help five people escape the Ghetto.  In one of his last letters to his wife he'd written the following.  "Everybody must die someday.  One can die as an executioner or a helper.  I want to die as a helper."

That kind of person inspires me.  Rudel was an executioner knowing full well what he was fighting for.  He too made his choice.  That doesn't inspire me.

That you think this is just because he was a Nazi, I'll give another example.

Look up the My Lai Massacre, and the name Hugh Thompson.  Some consider him a hero, others a villain for his actions that awful day.  I consider him a hero and inspiring.  You tell me what you think of him.

The difference being Rudel didn't simply go around slaughtering innocents, he fought against an armed enemy for 5 years in a plane that was pretty much obsolete, the vast majority of people don't have the balls to up a JU87 in Aces High for fear of their virtual lives let alone do it for real for 5 years constantly in wartime and survive. If Rudel was involved directly with the mass killing of Jews this would be a no brainer obviously. While I am no Nazi I am pretty blase about political ideology full stop I can see that this guy had balls to do all this that is why I respect him.

I'll not lie about promising to read My Lai Massacre I am pretty stretched for time these days Guppy but I will make an effort to read it on my next break and get back to you on that one mate. 

[Guppy35]

The difference being Rudel didn't simply go around slaughtering innocents, he fought against an armed enemy for 5 years in a plane that was pretty much obsolete, the vast majority of people don't have the balls to up a JU87 in Aces High for fear of their virtual lives let alone do it for real for 5 years constantly in wartime and survive. If Rudel was involved directly with the mass killing of Jews this would be a no brainer obviously. While I am no Nazi I am pretty blase about political ideology full stop I can see that this guy had balls to do all this that is why I respect him.

I'll not lie about promising to read My Lai Massacre I am pretty stretched for time these days Guppy but I will make an effort to read it on my next break and get back to you on that one mate. 

That he never recognized, even postwar what he fought for says it all.  There was no question what the Nazi regime stood for, even before the war.  I can accept that he was a great pilot.  I can't get to the point I can say I have any respect for him at all.