Author Topic: a sad, sad day  (Read 3598 times)

Offline steveb999

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2011, 03:32:21 PM »
Both those beg a response but I'll stick with "no Comment."

My quote was being very sarcastic. Probably should have chosen a better emote.

Offline saggs

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2011, 04:57:35 PM »
And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?

There is a reason that most modern planes that fly at those kind of speeds or greater have flying tails and/or hydraulic controls.

When that trim tab came off the aero would cause the elevator to deflect to a neutral position.  But at speeds of near or over 500 knots a neutral elevator means climbing very fast, since lots of down elevator is required to counter the lift at those speeds.   So basically when it came off, he went from level flight to a 10G pitch up and deceleration instantly, he suffers GLOC, the force is great enough to drop the tailwheel, the plane rolls whether from torque or inadvertently as he's unconscious slumped at the controls, and augers.

Of course the NTSB investigation could say something different, but at this point considering the photo evidence it seems pretty obvious.   Also considering that the same failure, on a similar airframe, caused nearly the same accident with Bob Hannah in Voodoo Chile in 1998, he was lucky in that the plane continued to climb while he was unconscious though.

Offline crockett

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2011, 05:02:31 PM »
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10720171/tm.htm

A little more intelligent discussion for the most part than some posts here.
Note the pictures ( very good quality) showing:
1. the missing trim tab.
2. pilot not visible in cockpit.
3. extended tail wheel (due to mechanical failure of up-lock due to g-load?)

Check out the video posted by Corsair Jock on page 3. Shows pretty much the entire event from initial climb to impact, not just the brief  blurs you get in the other vids.

BTW The pilots are instructed in the event of any emergency to climb and turn left (into the race infield).

Based upon the afore mentioned experience years ago from a trim tab faliure, it would seem that a similar chain of events happened, but with the roll, an entirely different outcome.



When watching at that complete vid of the crash tailwheel only came out after he was already inverted and pointed into the ground. Seems like he started a climb out but the plane inverted and it sent him straight into the ground. At the angle of the plane in that video he was probably blacked out by the time the plane inverted which is when the tail wheel came out.

Seems like at that point the plane just did what it was going to do and even if he wasn't blacked out, there wasn't anything he was going to do to stop it. Will be interesting to see what the report says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GftHiruJAPc
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 05:05:00 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline sntslilhlpr6601

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2011, 05:45:15 PM »
To Eagle, Golfer, and Widewing,

Thanks for all of the information.  While I hate that I learned it due to something as bad as this incident I am a bit of an information junkie and you three have really helped me understand potential causes to this accident.

 :salute

I completely agree.

When I heard about the crash I knew my first source was going to be this site.

Thank you guys for offering your knowledge here. It's always appreciated.  :salute

Offline colmbo

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2011, 06:35:30 PM »
Muzik,

That 74 year old had to pass the same medical exam every year as a 17 yr old  to continue flying.

Actually, folks over 40 have a slightly more detailed medical exam done....EKG is added to the mix.

Columbo

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Offline saggs

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2011, 06:41:18 PM »
Considering that no report for the accident has been filed yet, how can you be so sure that age played no role in it? It was likely mechanical failure as has been speculated due to the video & photo evidence but pilot error is the leading cause of most aircraft crashes and until the accident report has an official stamp on it no one can officially say yey, ney or maybe.

Simple fact is age is certainly an issue in most professional sports auto sports. There is a reason we don't see 70 year old guys driving F-1 cars or in NASCAR, because regardless of pilot capabilities the human body at 70 is not what it was at 20. I'm sure the guy was very fit and quite capable of a pilot, but it's also very reasonable to question age in this and certainly the official investigators will be looking into that as well.

Until the report is filed, claiming age was an issue is just as silly as claiming it wasn't.


Bottom line, the FAA has set no maximum age limit for private pilots.  Therefore, age is not an issue.   If there are any Centenarians out there who could pass the medical, they could in theory go fly.




Edited for simplicity

« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 06:55:57 PM by saggs »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2011, 06:54:25 PM »
That is correct saggs.

Many years ago I was at a boat race when the driver of a 280 hydro went straight at the first turn. He was run over by another boat but was already dead from a massive heart attack. The driver was age 25.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2011, 07:15:29 PM »
And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?

offtopic here, but why doesnt that happen in ah?

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline eagl

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2011, 07:42:35 PM »
offtopic here, but why doesnt that happen in ah?

semp

I'm obviously not an HTC rep, but...

Because it's a game.  Plus different planes behave differently after suffering damage, and there isn't much flight test data available for what happens when various pieces get shot or ripped off, so you get a single very nice flight model for a lot of planes that were very dissimilar in real life.

Airfoil differences are one huge area that have to be dealt with by HTC when modelling each plane.  Just the simple differences between, for example, the elliptical spit wing, the fat hurricane wing, and the supercritical P-51 wing, lead to hugely different flight characteristics in RL.  Each airfoil is going to behave differently to various levels of damage or airflow disruption, and HTC has done a ton of work figuring out a reasonable response to various types of damage that keep the game challenging but fun.
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Offline crockett

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2011, 10:09:45 PM »
That is correct saggs.

Many years ago I was at a boat race when the driver of a 280 hydro went straight at the first turn. He was run over by another boat but was already dead from a massive heart attack. The driver was age 25.

Yes and teenagers fall over dead on football fields. Yet the odds of a 25 y/o dying from a stroke or heart attack are likely just a tad bit lower than someone whom is 74 years old.

You can play the argument game all day long, but you are only fooling yourself by trying to convince anyone that someone at age 74 shouldn't be under a bit more scrutiny, than say a 25 or 30 y/o when it comes to competing in such a sport. Specially when others lives are also at risk.

"strafing"

Offline saggs

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2011, 10:51:06 PM »
Yes and teenagers fall over dead on football fields. Yet the odds of a 25 y/o dying from a stroke or heart attack are likely just a tad bit lower than someone whom is 74 years old.

You can play the argument game all day long, but you are only fooling yourself by trying to convince anyone that someone at age 74 shouldn't be under a bit more scrutiny, than say a 25 or 30 y/o when it comes to competing in such a sport. Specially when others lives are also at risk.



Of course he is going to be under closer scrutiny, and he was (as colmbo pointed out the medical is stricter for older folks) and he passed said scrutiny.   Unless you're going to claim that the MD who did his last medical faked it, and if that's true then that doctor is done.   I'm sure the NTSB will look into that as well.

Like I said, unless the FAA changes it's rules, you cannot ground a private pilot based only on their age.

Others lives are at risk anytime anybody goes flying, or driving for that matter, should we not allow 74 yr olds to drive either, heck they might plow into an elementary school playground.   Maybe they should raise the minimum pilot age too, I know lots of 17yr olds I don't think are mature enough to handle an airplane.  I could think of excuses for why almost anybody of any age could be a dangerous flyer, young people are immature and lack experience, middle age people are having a mid-life crisis and are reckless, old people aren't as strong and forgetful... ...

As has been pointed out several times, he was subjected to 9+Gs (we know that is what is needed to drop the tailwheel) which in 1998, from the same failure, also knocked out a pilot of 41 yrs old, does that mean 41 is too old to compete as well?

Life involves risk, that's just the way it is.  A life without risk would be awfully boring.  Maybe you'll be content to just sit in your rocker yelling at kids on your grass in your twilight years, I would rather still be active though, and almost all activities involve some level of risk.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 11:08:06 PM by saggs »

Offline Tupac

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2011, 11:47:40 PM »
I are 17 year old pilot flies gud.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2011, 07:45:51 AM »
As hard is it is to refrain from commenting on the people who have judged this man's motives, intentions
and character without so much as ever meeting, much less knowing him... I will do so...

I will say this. I grew-up and still live in the same town Jimmy Leeward called home. I have had the
occasion to meet both he and his wife Bette several times. Mr. Leeward was an outstanding pilot who
gave alot to this community. He held safety in the highest reguard and nothing other than a pure mechanical
failure caused this tragedy.

As concious as I knew he was about safety and knowing that this tragedy cost the lives of several others,
it can be only literally ripping the heart of of those he left behind. The worst thing that he could have ever wanted to
happen and worked so hard to avoid...... did....

Fair skies Mr. Leeward... May your family and the ones of those hurt or killed in this accident find peace one day
and may those that judge you find forgiveness...

<S>...

 



 probably about the only worthwhile post in this entire thread. the rest is beyond disgusting.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2011, 09:25:05 AM »
Any sane person in the world would do anything they could to avoid going into the crowd. As a matter of fact anyone's first reaction would be to pull out of that dive for self preservation. Either way, what he did was not heroic, it was his obligation.

As a matter of fact, his judgement shows a decidedly opposite personality. He was 80 frkn years old and should not have been flying over crowds of people. If he has the money and wants to push his limits, there are millions of places in the world to get his kicks without putting others at danger but he apparently chose to selfishly participate in a sport that all conventional wisdom says he is too old for at the risk of the people he just killed.

Hero? No! Geriatric glory hound, yes!

 :aok  I like the news making every pilot a hero for trying to avoid buildings and landing in a corn field instead.  Well, duh! Given a choice, I am shooting for the corn field also.  Every one is a hero now days even if we don't even know if they had control. 
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline grizz441

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Re: a sad, sad day
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2011, 09:27:39 AM »
:aok  I like the news making every pilot a hero for trying to avoid buildings and landing in a corn field instead.  Well, duh! Given a choice, I am shooting for the corn field also.  Every one is a hero now days even if we don't even know if they had control. 

Well duh, some might have bailed out to save themselves.  Of course it sounds like he might have been blacked out when he crashed.