Author Topic: Collision Model  (Read 6669 times)

Offline ImADot

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #180 on: October 03, 2011, 07:17:14 PM »
3. Since he has been corned ...

Remind me to never make stuff up to support a desire for a game change, and challenge Hitech about it.

I have no desire to be corned...  :noid
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #181 on: October 03, 2011, 10:08:20 PM »
  I'm all for what makes my air combat flight sim experience more enjoyable.

  Pretty explosions, parts flying off, trailing smoke, guy pissing me off, me pissing other guy off by out flying/outshooting eachother. All enjoyable.


 Whats not enjoyable?  Robot gunners, proximity 5" for all years of the war, strats that dont do anything, and collisions. All pretty much end a flight and/or waste your time. Again Ill say Ive done prop to prop collisions and had very odd results, when each pilot saw themselves hitting prop to prop. Its the inconsistancy of it that bothers me.
That and if you jerk your stick up at the last second, its like the enemy doesnt see that you "moved" and thinks its still coming at him causing him to collide and you are ok.

Did this one night in a Snapshot outnumbered in a P47 like 7 -1. Killed them all with pure collision, I was unscathed. If nothing else...the want for realism, the inconsistancy of damage, that..the ability to game the heck of it should be enough reason to ask why do we need collision?

~AoM~

Offline dedalos

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #182 on: October 04, 2011, 08:49:51 AM »
See rule #4
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 09:25:03 AM by hitech »
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline dedalos

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #183 on: October 04, 2011, 08:51:02 AM »
  I'm all for what makes my air combat flight sim experience more enjoyable.

  Pretty explosions, parts flying off, trailing smoke, guy pissing me off, me pissing other guy off by out flying/outshooting eachother. All enjoyable.


 Whats not enjoyable?  Robot gunners, proximity 5" for all years of the war, strats that dont do anything, and collisions. All pretty much end a flight and/or waste your time. Again Ill say Ive done prop to prop collisions and had very odd results, when each pilot saw themselves hitting prop to prop. Its the inconsistancy of it that bothers me.
That and if you jerk your stick up at the last second, its like the enemy doesnt see that you "moved" and thinks its still coming at him causing him to collide and you are ok.

Did this one night in a Snapshot outnumbered in a P47 like 7 -1. Killed them all with pure collision, I was unscathed. If nothing else...the want for realism, the inconsistancy of damage, that..the ability to game the heck of it should be enough reason to ask why do we need collision?

Careful, hemay corner you and then back down  :lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline coombz

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #184 on: October 04, 2011, 09:29:25 AM »
just to clarify :D the original wording of the claim and response - but who backed down!?! decide for yourself

The pull up at the last second is not made up stuff.  Get in a set of buffs and lest go in the DA and try it.  I will make you collide about 50% of the time.  

Ill take that bet for $100.

HiTech


I'll take the bet or we can just try it for a bottle of whiskey (wont hurt as much if I lose lol), but you will be playing over an internet connection and we some how will have to verify the ping times.  Given your explanation of how it works, do you honestly think i can;t cause your buffs to collide by flying across their nose really fast or do you hope I wont be able to time it right (may happen since I've been gone for a while)?

Win or lose, I won;t be able to understand why it is needed or like that it is there.  Don't you think it is funny that no one so far has given a reason on why we need it?  It is all about how it works  :lol


You do realize I will be shooting and avoiding you?

HiTech

your statement was that you can make a pass in game and make a bomber collide with you 50% of the time.

Hence the rules would be you make a dive pass at me and you make my buff have a collision at lease 50% of the passes.


:lol  I told one guy to try it with me in the DA, not you.  I can do it in the game but I really don;t remember any buff twisting and turning to avoid me flying in front of their nose.  As for shooting at me it proves nothing other than you can shoot.  If you are in B26s you are not shooting at me under your belly nor are you shooting at me if you are busy shooting at others.  Are we testing my collision theory or your gunning?  If you want to customize the test to get the desired results I am afraid you will have to find someone else to try it with.

dedalos claims victory :aok  :salute

Careful, he may corner you and then back down  :lol
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Offline hitech

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #185 on: October 04, 2011, 09:30:01 AM »
Quote
Get in a set of buffs and lest go in the DA and try it.  I will make you collide about 50% of the time.

No where is there a qualifier in this statement that the bombers should fly different then people would in the main arena.

So I will be happy to do the challenge if I may fly like I would in the main arena. But if you demand I fly straight and level with out shooting, and you say you can collide, I say well DUHHHH of coarse thats possibly.

HiTech
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 09:35:01 AM by hitech »

Offline grizz441

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #186 on: October 04, 2011, 10:12:37 AM »
No where is there a qualifier in this statement that the bombers should fly different then people would in the main arena.

So I will be happy to do the challenge if I may fly like I would in the main arena. But if you demand I fly straight and level with out shooting, and you say you can collide, I say well DUHHHH of coarse thats possibly.

HiTech

Hitech, to be fair, bombers will fly straight and level in the MA as well so they can shoot the incoming fighter.  If Dedalos is going to try to collide your bombers though, that means he is going to be flying very close.  Shouldn't be too hard to autopilot and blast him with your guns.  There is no advantage in trying to ram bombers unless your intent is to get killed.

Offline dedalos

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #187 on: October 04, 2011, 10:32:29 AM »
No where is there a qualifier in this statement that the bombers should fly different then people would in the main arena.

So I will be happy to do the challenge if I may fly like I would in the main arena. But if you demand I fly straight and level with out shooting, and you say you can collide, I say well DUHHHH of coarse thats possibly.

HiTech

Thank you, that was the whole point of this, that it is possible, and I will agree that 50% is an exaggeration but it was made to make a point.  That is also why I said lets try it in the DA.  More control of the variables.  The goal is to see if I can force a collision not to see if the gunner can take me down (I think we know that bullets kill, unless you feel that needs testing also) and in all honesty, unless I am dog fighting a B26, buffs in the MA are not avoiding (yes, they fly straight and level and it is better to attack when they are shooting someone else).  They just wait in their guns.

I discovered this by accident making passes on 999 a while back.  I was so scared of him that I would come in so fast and from the side, I could not control the plane very well and ended up passing right in front of his nose.  I any case, I never claimed that people are using this on me or anything like that.

So, yeah, nowhere in the qualifier was it mentioned that the buffs are not shooting and not avoiding, but I would think one could assume that, given the goal and the fact that the challenge was issued to a friend trying to show something.

Then again, I could have just posted that I just won and you backed down because you got cornered and make up some stuff about you backing down (since you admit it is possible unless you are trying to avoid) or that you admit that some people did post reasons for removing collisions.  Isn't this how we solve things here?  Personal attacks, twisting posts, and try to speak louder than the other guy?  :aok

Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline hitech

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #188 on: October 04, 2011, 10:50:42 AM »
Thank you, that was the whole point of this, that it is possible, and I will agree that 50% is an exaggeration but it was made to make a point.  That is also why I said lets try it in the DA.  More control of the variables.  The goal is to see if I can force a collision not to see if the gunner can take me down (I think we know that bullets kill, unless you feel that needs testing also) and in all honesty, unless I am dog fighting a B26, buffs in the MA are not avoiding (yes, they fly straight and level and it is better to attack when they are shooting someone else).  They just wait in their guns.

I discovered this by accident making passes on 999 a while back.  I was so scared of him that I would come in so fast and from the side, I could not control the plane very well and ended up passing right in front of his nose.  I any case, I never claimed that people are using this on me or anything like that.

So, yeah, nowhere in the qualifier was it mentioned that the buffs are not shooting and not avoiding, but I would think one could assume that, given the goal and the fact that the challenge was issued to a friend trying to show something.

Then again, I could have just posted that I just won and you backed down because you got cornered and make up some stuff about you backing down (since you admit it is possible unless you are trying to avoid) or that you admit that some people did post reasons for removing collisions.  Isn't this how we solve things here?  Personal attacks, twisting posts, and try to speak louder than the other guy?  :aok



Let me get this straight,. You state that you can collide at will as a reason that there is a problem with collision code? (hence implying it can be used in the main arena as a offensive weapon) and now it becomes qualified to if a friend flies straight and level with out shooting and lets me maneuver at will so I can position my plane ahead of him and collide with him. And even farther qualified that you exaggerated the 50%.


And now you state it is I that am backing down?


So since you have now qualified it to only straight and level with out shooting, I would assume you would agree that the idea that you can collide at will given your qualifiers, really has no effect in the main arena?

And for sake of argument, if you could fly that precisely, wouldn't it just be easier to shoot the bomber?

So tell me how can this be used as a weapon in any way in the main arena. 

P.S. Since you have now stopped that no one has posted reasons of why we should have collision, I assume you agree there are valid reasons for having planes collide, even though you still don't like it?

HiTech


Offline dedalos

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #189 on: October 04, 2011, 01:14:52 PM »
Let me get this straight,. You state that you can collide at will as a reason that there is a problem with collision code?
I am pretty sure if you do a search or read my posts, will find no evidence of me saying anything like that.

Quote
(hence implying it can be used in the main arena as a offensive weapon) and now it becomes qualified to if a friend flies straight and level with out shooting and lets me maneuver at will so I can position my plane ahead of him and collide with him. And even farther qualified that you exaggerated the 50%.

Never implied that either although I will imply it now if it makes you feel better.  Yes it could, but it would be easier to shoot the buff as you said, unless you just want to annoy people or are out of ammo.  What I did say, is that it could be gamed.  I never said or implied that there is a problem with the code.  If you remember, I said it does not even matter how it works.  It is the fact that it is there that I don;t like.  And the reason is that it can end a fight most of the time not due to a mistake the guys involved in it made, but due to a bad pick attempt.

So, I did offer a friend to go to the DA and show him what I meant and how it could be done.  He might have proved me wrong, too.  I have no clue where you came from, assuming you knew what the set up was going to be and all the rest.

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And now you state it is I that am backing down?

No, I said I could say that.  You know, like you did with me.  Instead of talking about it, you came after me.  So I said I could play the same game.

Quote
So since you have now qualified it to only straight and level with out shooting, I would assume you would agree that the idea that you can collide at will given your qualifiers, really has no effect in the main arena?

Yes, or a very small one.  However, it does have an effect when guys are buzzing your fight.  Not intentionally causing a collision, but causing one never the less.  And that is what I wanted to show him.  I also wanted to show the guys that keep explaining how the collisions work that not only you can collide due to no fault of yours (meaning you cant avoid it) but you can also intentionally cause one.
Quote
And for sake of argument, if you could fly that precisely, wouldn't it just be easier to shoot the bomber?
No argument there.  It is.  Read above.

Quote
P.S. Since you have now stopped that no one has posted reasons of why we should have collision, I assume you agree there are valid reasons for having planes collide, even though you still don't like it?

HiTech


Yes, after 20 something pages some people did post reasons.  It does not matter if agree with them or not.  At list they did post reasons instead of the normal attacks and explaining how the code works.  So, what does that prove?  That after I said no one has posted reasons some people did post? Or that I might have missed a couple of posts?  I mean really, what is your point with this one? 

So, I don't understand what you are so upset about or why people get upset about this subject.  Why can;t we talk about pros and cons of having it (between us) instead of how it works?  I thought this was a place to talk about things like this, no?  People that don;t want to be involved in the conversation can always not read the thread instead of coming in to tell us that it has been talked about before, no?

I m tired of this and I think in the 10 years here, I have learned that we are not going to get anywhere by continuing this, so here is my offer.  If you still don;t understand what I was trying to say and show, to who ever I told to meed in the DA, continuing this conversation is pointless.  Lets just say I backed down and run away.  If however you think that I could not cause a collision by flying in front a set of buffs that are not twisting and turning (which was the idea before you jumped in) then lets try it.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #190 on: October 04, 2011, 01:29:02 PM »
pass me the pop corn this is getting interesting
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Offline hitech

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #191 on: October 04, 2011, 03:12:40 PM »

Yes, or a very small one.  However, it does have an effect when guys are buzzing your fight.  Not intentionally causing a collision, but causing one never the less.  And that is what I wanted to show him.  I also wanted to show the guys that keep explaining how the collisions work that not only you can collide due to no fault of yours (meaning you cant avoid it)

..........
but you can also intentionally cause one.No argument there.  It is.  Read above.



The last piece of this statement is the big issue I have, Saying you can intentionally cause a collision is in accurate when you need the help of the other guy (I.E. flying straight and level) . The real statement is that 2 people can intentionally make one of the guys collide.

The way you make this statement you are trying to portray the idea that people intentionally cause  collisions in the main arena where the other guy dies. And hence are not adding facts or reality to the discussion but rather just using false statement to forward you desire not to have collisions modeled.

You are entitled to your opinion ( you do not like collisions), but you are not entitled to false facts (A person can intentionally miss use the collision system by having the other guy collide and him not).


The fact is , someone can not intentionally cause a collision as a tactic to use to his advantage in the main arena.
And this is the fact that I would be happy to prove to you by testing.


HiTech

Offline hubsonfire

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #192 on: October 04, 2011, 03:22:26 PM »
The fact is , someone can not intentionally cause a collision as a tactic to use to his advantage in the main arena.
And this is the fact that I would be happy to prove to you by testing.


HiTech


Just because you said this, and it's going to get quoted and repeated ad nauseum at some point, I think that statement should contain the word "consistently". You absolutely can force a collision, although I do agree that it's extremely difficult, requires a number of factors in your favor, and it's only really good as a defensive measure. If someone is capable of timing the merge/near-miss and flying with any sort of precision, they could just as easily shoot you down with less risk of causing a collision on their FE.
mook
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Offline hitech

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #193 on: October 04, 2011, 03:29:38 PM »
Hence why I choose the words "tactic " and "advantage".

HiTech

Offline hubsonfire

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #194 on: October 04, 2011, 03:39:05 PM »
Fair enough, I just thought it was a little ambiguous as typed.
mook
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