109s and Flaps

[Ardy123]

Trim is important (to me at anyrate) because you won't always be able to maintain your corner velocity. If you go over it, trim will keep you from feeling the effects of compression quite so much.

  corner velocity has not much to do with trim. I just set my trim to the center, and keep the ball centered using the stick and the pedals.

Corner vel. has everything to do with speed, and in a dog fight, flaps help you get to a better sustained turn radius.

[Oldman731]

If I want to turn as hard as I can and get inside and tight I will get them down as quick as I can.  If I am trying to conserve E and do not need the additional edge for turning, then I keep them up or just 1-2 notches.  It's just all feel once you realize what you are actually trying to accomplish with your flap deployments.

This. Also, I'm in agreement that combat trim is fine for the 109s.

- oldman

[Tank-Ace]

found it on my own in the K4. Engine is so powerfull, you almost have to be idling to keep from starting to feel compression at times. Since trim just moves the controll surfaces, you'll have a larger elevator imput with trim than without it.

I guess a good way to put it is that trim helps get rid of some of that 'heavy' feeling in the controlls.



Ardy, I'm not saying trim helps you maintain your corner velocity, I'm just saying that once you go past it, and get into the range of mild compression, trim will take away some of the 'heavy' feeling to the controlls.

[JOACH1M]

Ardy, I'm not saying trim helps you maintain your corner velocity, I'm just saying that once you go past it, and get into the range of mild compression, trim will take away some of the 'heavy' feeling to the controlls.

That's not what this says

Trim is important (to me at anyrate) because you won't always be able to maintain your corner velocity.

Anyway, in my opinion trim does no benifit, unless your compressing.

[FLS]

I believe Tank-Ace is correctly referring to the high speed handling characteristics of the 109s when you get fast enough so that trim helps you, and may even be necessary, to control roll and pitch. This speed is above corner velocity.

When we read what people post it's useful to think about how they may be correct instead of just how they may be wrong. Most of us are not particularly good at writing. 

[Tank-Ace]

That's not what this says
Anyway, in my opinion trim does no benifit, unless your compressing.

I suppose unless you're train of thought paralleled mine, it doesn't say that.

What I was talking about is that, since you can't always maintain your corner velocity (and therefore mild compression can be a consideration in combat), trim will help you overcome the heavy controlls when you DO go above your corner velocity.

Sorry for any confusion.

[Ardy123]

Ardy, I'm not saying trim helps you maintain your corner velocity, I'm just saying that once you go past it, and get into the range of mild compression, trim will take away some of the 'heavy' feeling to the controlls.

ahh, I got ya, I think most of us were thinking of a fight where on is going slow enough to get flaps out, which is around 200 mph.


EDIT: BTW, O believe the corner velocity for a 109k4 is in the mid 200s, like 250 ish... but mathematically speaking the best would be at ~220ish with one notch of flaps, but that's not possible in game.

[Tank-Ace]

IIRC, HTC is using the max deployment speed of the 109's landing flaps as the max deployment speed of their combat flaps. Again, IIRC, the combat flap speed should be somewhere between ~275-300mph.

[Owlblink]

IIRC, HTC is using the max deployment speed of the 109's landing flaps as the max deployment speed of their combat flaps. Again, IIRC, the combat flap speed should be somewhere between ~275-300mph.

Have you come across any written evidence for the deployment speed of the flaps from a historical standpoint that we could present for a suggested change?

[gyrene81]

i did once but it was a supposed u.s. intelligence report from sept. 1944 and there was no way to validate it's authenticity. other than a few finn pilots saying something in post war interviews, that's it.

[Owlblink]

i did once but it was a supposed u.s. intelligence report from sept. 1944 and there was no way to validate it's authenticity. other than a few finn pilots saying something in post war interviews, that's it.

If enough seperate sources of pilots saying that they droped at a higher speed is presented, I would consider it worth presenting to HT.
However, the true aircrafts were in KM/H, I believe, so some math would have to be done in refference to what the pilots may have qoated ( they might have been speaking of KM/P and not MPH, or they might have only given ruff guestimates of what they think the equivalent speeds were in MPH).

[gyrene81]

there have been repeated debates about the 109 flaps and every argument conceivable has been presented. ain't gonna happen.

maybe if someone could find a legitimate copy of the luftwaffe standard issued in 1938 for 109 flap deployment... 

[FLS]

IIRC, HTC is using the max deployment speed of the 109's landing flaps as the max deployment speed of their combat flaps. Again, IIRC, the combat flap speed should be somewhere between ~275-300mph.

300 kph might be believable but 300 mph is not. Wouldn't you think the slats served the same purpose as combat flaps?

[Tank-Ace]

FLS, you think the germans shouldn't even be able to deploy COMBAT flaps above ~186mph?

I don't have any origional sources, no. But I've seen websites, and translated german documents stating landing flap speed as being ~ 275km/hr.


A fair bit of anecdotal evidence suggests that flap deployment speed should be higher.



BTW, that 275-300mph number was for max theoretical deployment speed (i.e. before you begin to damage parts). I'll try to find the site I found that from.

[FLS]

It's not a question of what anyone should be able to do. The question is what were the pilot's operating instructions. Anecdotes are not evidence. A lot of players would like a higher flap deployment speed but that's a different issue.

You didn't answer about the slats.  Do you think they planned for both slats and combat flaps?