Should A20 loose it's F3 mode

[Tilt]

Whilst the original question may be valid the ensuing debate does seem to be becoming pointless............

Experten seem to claim that F3 is not required to fly these attackers at their optimum. Others seem to wish that F3 be removed as an option from these attackers

Between these two points of debate I see no objection to removing F3................ was one clearly defined somewhere? (do I have to read this all again?)

Or are the experten merely using the debate to (subtely?) remind us all how truely experten they really are .................. which I suppose is equally pointless.

[coombz]

So, we took away the IL2's main advantage and looky here, another hanger queen that was used for a decade as a fun base defence aircraft. The anti-vulch IL2 out of the bomber hangar was a classic element of this game for so long but that got changed due excessive whines. Now the crusade for selective realism (still not satisfied with crushing the fun out of the IL2) are seeking to limit the abilities of a medium bomber that a small handfull of people have taken the time to master. Why? For realism? Come off it.

I think this is a very important point - that the IL2 was used fairly often in the past and now is almost never seen. What price realism?

[Slade]

I think this is a very important point - that the IL2 was used fairly often in the past and now is almost never seen. What price realism?

Maybe it is used more as a ground attack plane than a base defense "fighter" now.  Sounds appropriate.  

Those players that used to use it as a fighter maybe now use Wirbles\M-16s or if the fighter hangers are still up...take up fighters!  Oh no!

Perhaps those hypnotized by score liked to take it up when a base was overwhlemed by enemy planes, i.e. where being vulched is a near certainty.  

Respectfully, I vote keep F3 mode off on the IL-2.  

[coombz]

Maybe it is used more as a ground attack plane than a base defense "fighter" now.  Sounds appropriate.  

sounds boring to me      and in fact, it is

but at least it's more realistic

[Reaper90]

F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2...  just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.

Leaves the SA element there, as F3 was intended, and removes the gamey aspect of using F3 to dogfight while outside of the cockpit/gunner position. If you wanna fire that weapon, you have to be sitting in that seat..........

[mechanic]

What    Pardon me Yoda  

Use the force one does.  Talks in riddles one must.  Spread utter nonsense and bring dishonor to the Training Corps one must not.  

I put up my stats, and yet you cannot shut your trap on something that you are obviously wrong about but not MAN enough to admit it.  Now, take a look at your own stats, because I did.  Seems to me, that you might be out of touch.  

I think that your work as a skinner is notable    Volunteering to serve on the training corps also admirable.    But some things maybe you need to be quiet about, or bring a valid arguement not false conjecture.

Well now, I have never made a decent skin in my life.

If you want  me to explain my 'riddle', here it is.

'If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then complain that it is uncomfortable.'

This means if you don't think you are whining because an A20 beat you up, don't defend yourself against a simple comment that was not directed at you.

I have no idea why you think I am bringing dishonour to the Training Corps. I have even less idea why you think checking a few months worth of stats makes any difference to a debate which can only be based on opinions. I will happily admit if and when I find myself mistaken.

From your reactions to my conjecture it leaves me with no doubt that at some point you were beaten by an A20 and disliked the fact. You are the only one here who is wearing the shoe.

F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2...  just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.

Leaves the SA element there, as F3 was intended, and removes the gamey aspect of using F3 to dogfight while outside of the cockpit/gunner position. If you wanna fire that weapon, you have to be sitting in that seat..........

+1

[Slade]

F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2...  just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.

Simple, brilliant and perfect!  +1

[Krusty]

It's nothing to toggle F3 and F1 seamlessly. Requiring F1 to fire guns would not reduce the abuse of the full surround vision that F3 gives you. Ghi's lame neg-G on the deck manuver would still be 100% replicatable.

The presence of F3 on the IL2 gave it a superhuman ability. That doesn't mean it deserved this. It doesn't mean that belonged in the game. The statement: "F3 was the IL2's only advantage, and it has been taken away" may be perfectly correct, but it doesn't negate the preceeding question of: "Does the IL2 deserve an advantage?"

HTC doesn't boost certain planes and nerf other planes just so they have some advantage. Otherwise spits' turning radii would be nerfed so other planes can "compete"...

IMO the IL2 was a bit of a rare duck in that the attributes in this game (attacker, F3, ups from BH instead of FH, soaks up multiple 37mm with no damage, can 1-ping-kill any fighter in the game) all congealed together to form a perfect storm of gaminess, and that is why the focus has been on the IL2. Comparing the A-20 isn't the same, because it is not this perfect storm of attributes that is being horribly abused.

If you want to argue the A-20 should lose F3 go for it (and I may agree!) but it does not compare on a 1:1 ratio with the issues we had with the IL2.

[icepac]

F3 from any position except the pilot.

I'm not concerned with air to air but rather F3 being used by lancasters to bomb ground vehicles they would have to roll 90 degrees to see otherwise.

[Krusty]

F3 isn't an issue because of dive bombing lancs....

Frankly you don't need to aim when you're driving a lanc, man. Take the 4k, drop it anywhere within a mile, or salvo 14 and just drop a line in the sand. You don't even need to pinpoint. Using it on D3As, Ju87s, etc, is a far more important issue than in Lancasters.

[Debrody]

-1, its much easyer to bomb**** the spawn campers in f3 mode

[Chilli]

Well now, I have never made a decent skin in my life.

If you want  me to explain my 'riddle', here it is.

'If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then complain that it is uncomfortable.'

This means if you don't think you are whining because an A20 beat you up, don't defend yourself against a simple comment that was not directed at you.

I have no idea why you think I am bringing dishonour to the Training Corps. I have even less idea why you think checking a few months worth of stats makes any difference to a debate which can only be based on opinions. I will happily admit if and when I find myself mistaken.

From your reactions to my conjecture it leaves me with no doubt that at some point you were beaten by an A20 and disliked the fact. You are the only one here who is wearing the shoe.

One positive consideration of this thread is the number of posters, including yourself that are willing to see guns disabled from the F3 mode.  Another consideration that posters brought up was the fact that iL2's are no longer located in the bomber hanger.  So, I agree that the A20 should not be removed from the bomber hanger, which I would attach to retaining it's F3 mode (I learned something and have tried to move on).

MachNix was the skinner I had mistaken you for, and I stand corrected (the spelling is not even close  ). 

Now if you are able to admit that in your original statement:

I am yet another person who has an opinion on this matter.
My opinion shall follow:
This entire thread is pointless and only comes about due to players getting spanked by a medium bomber and not being able to take it.
thank you for letting me join in
carry on

^^^  you are saying that, being spanked by an A20 was the reason for my post, then  based on evidence that I provided to you, your assumption was false, since I was the OP who started the thread. 

From the number of decent players posts that were positive and debated without throwing stones,  my point of view has been swayed and we seem to agree on more than one point.  I take that as a debate worth having.

[JUGgler]

F3 mode enabled in all bombers, including IL2...  just disable the ability to fire any weapon (including secondary, i.e. dropping ords) while in F3 mode.

Leaves the SA element there, as F3 was intended, and removes the gamey aspect of using F3 to dogfight while outside of the cockpit/gunner position. If you wanna fire that weapon, you have to be sitting in that seat..........

This is no real change as SA and what you do with SA is about 99.5% of any fight. The actual shoosting is a very small % of the fights.

Now puting a small delay, maybe 1 second tween switching and being able to shoost would begin to have an affect.


I think what this has always come down to is when certain planes are used in ways that we all know they were never used or rarely used for.


As a current user of F3 when I use these planes I know for a fact that shoosting is easier and SA is far superior to anything else, this does not make the planes performance better but it sure helps compensate for it!


Untill the play style can be overcome I think F3 should stay for these particular planes and be re-added to the il2




JUGgler

[Krusty]

When the crutch is abused to the point of Steroids in the MLB, that crutch should not be suffered.

You saying "It's awesome, it's super, the plane doesn't fly any better but it more than compensates for that F3, so let's put F3 back on the Il2" doesn't make any logical sense. It is exactly because it was mis-used to the point of public outcry (much like the chog usage many years back) that HTC took action. I'm glad they did in the IL2's case.

That doesn't mean HTC is going to perk the spit16 like they did the Chog. It doesn't mean they're going to remove F3 on the A20 like they did on the IL2. It does mean they made a call on a specific plane (all by itself, irrespective of the rest of the planeset) to balance a major issue happening in the game.

[mechanic]

Chilli, I did not even realise you were the OP when I made that comment, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by it. But that does not change the fact that my opinion is that this is essentially a cleverly worded whine thread. Even after all the pages here I can see no real way that removing the F3 view from the A20 will benefit you other than making it harder for A20s to kill you. If you don't like my opinion, ignore me.

Now...if you were talking about removing F3 from the Dueling Arena, I would be supporting you vehemently.

S!