Big wolf

[Melvin]

"However, compared to the deer mortality caused by other sources, including other predators, the impact of wolves on the deer population is relatively small.

I guess it's all in the interpretation. To me these numbers are in no way "small".

 Many of these deer would have died from various other causes if wolves were not present

But they didn't die of other causes. Wolves killed them.

"Antlered buck numbers will likely be on the rise, as the increased production of fawns in 2010 should lead to greater antlered buck numbers this year."

This is speculation at it's best. We can run around in a circle all day (again). The facts, as I see it, are that the deer herd is getting smaller every year that the wolf population is left unchecked. You can take my eyewitness account and tell me to shove it, I really don't care. Just remember that there are thousands of hunters in this area that feel the way I do. To those of us that live here and see what's going on it's plain as day.

I'm sorry if I ruffled some feathers. I shall now go and watch "Dances With Wolves" as my penance. It seems, after all, that is where many of the posters here get their knowledge of predators.

[gyrene81]

I got it from here.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10856_10905-150249--,00.html

melvin, do you actually read or just go by the numbers in the pretty colors? that report specifically states, most of the deer eaten by wolves die from other causes. cars kill at least 5-8000 deer a year just in the u.p. not even the dnr can attribute wolf kills to all the carcasses they find that have been touched by wolves. you haven't even looked at everything else that factors in to deer populations...it's just the wolves.

[Stoliman]

How about Texas javelinas/wild pigs/feral hogs?  Can we all agree they do enormous crop and environment destruction?

Probably not.....unless you live here.

[ink]

melvin, do you actually read or just go by the numbers in the pretty colors? that report specifically states, most of the deer eaten by wolves die from other causes. cars kill at least 5-8000 deer a year just in the u.p. not even the dnr can attribute wolf kills to all the carcasses they find that have been touched by wolves. you haven't even looked at everything else that factors in to deer populations...it's just the wolves.

honestly...whats the point...the guy is the know all end all of wolf intelligence.......ask him he will tell ya

[ink]

How about Texas javelinas/wild pigs/feral hogs?  Can we all agree they do enormous crop and environment destruction?

Probably not.....unless you live here.

they are not indigenous...so should be eradicated  

[Melvin]

that report specifically states, most of the deer eaten by wolves die from other causes.

Do you mean this sentence?

"Also, an unknown number of deer eaten by wolves may have died from other causes, such as winter conditions or vehicle collisions."

Pure speculation. Not sure where you're getting "most" from.

How about Texas javelinas/wild pigs/feral hogs?  Can we all agree they do enormous crop and environment destruction?

Probably not.....unless you live here.

And here is the rub. People from hundreds or thousands of miles away are going to tell me that what I and so many others are seeing with our own eyes is false. It's mind boggling.

[ink]

Do you mean this sentence?

"Also, an unknown number of deer eaten by wolves may have died from other causes, such as winter conditions or vehicle collisions."

Pure speculation. Not sure where you're getting "most" from.

And here is the rub. People from hundreds or thousands of miles away are going to tell me that what I and so many others are seeing with our own eyes is false. It's mind boggling.

too bad the hogs he is referring to are not indigenous to that area....where as the wolves you are talking about are.


oh and so you don't have to look it up.....indigenous....means..."coming from originally" in other words that's where they are from.....or "not from" in the case of the hogs.

[Tyrannis]

Werent wolves hunting deers LONG before humanity arrived in North America? 

What gives you the right to claim their food source for yourself, and push them away?

[Raptor]

You can take my eyewitness account and tell me to shove it, I really don't care. Just remember that there are thousands of hunters in this area that feel the way I do. To those of us that live here and see what's going on it's plain as day.

I am a Market Analyst for my company, and see this kind of thing every day. Someone will swear one thing is true, and it is true with everyone that they talk to. When in reality what they think is wrong. But that is because of haphazard sampling, which is not entirely representative and can be misleading. You may be notice less deer in your area, but "that city fella" that lives a couple miles away that you never talk to, actually goes hunting and thinks there is an abundance of deer. However you don't think his opinion matters because you don't know he actually goes hunting, and he doesn't participate in groups you are involved with so you don't know his experiences.

[Melvin]

I am a Market Analyst for my company, and see this kind of thing every day. Someone will swear one thing is true, and it is true with everyone that they talk to. When in reality what they think is wrong. But that is because of haphazard sampling, which is not entirely representative and can be misleading. You may be notice less deer in your area, but "that city fella" that lives a couple miles away that you never talk to, actually goes hunting and thinks there is an abundance of deer. However you don't think his opinion matters because you don't know he actually goes hunting, and he doesn't participate in groups you are involved with so you don't know his experiences.

I understand what you are saying and I probably shouldn't dismiss anyone's opinion. However, I have yet to see anyone post in this thread that has first hand knowledge with our area.

I'm saying that wolves are taking a large amount of deer and need proper management.

The push-back is from people saying that wolves are pretty and majestic and have a right to live here and do as they please.

I hunt and fish all over this area. Everyone that I associate with hunts and fishes all over this area. We've all noticed the same thing.

Back when the wolf program was started, the number was 200 animals were needed to sustain a viable population. Nobody had a problem with that. We now have more than triple that amount and the effects are noticeable. Now we have a problem.

[IrishOne]

I understand what you are saying and I probably shouldn't dismiss anyone's opinion. However, I have yet to see anyone post in this thread that has first hand knowledge with our area.

I'm saying that wolves are taking a large amount of deer and need proper management.

The push-back is from people saying that wolves are pretty and majestic and have a right to live here and do as they please.

I hunt and fish all over this area. Everyone that I associate with hunts and fishes all over this area. We've all noticed the same thing.

Back when the wolf program was started, the number was 200 animals were needed to sustain a viable population. Nobody had a problem with that. We now have more than triple that amount and the effects are noticeable. Now we have a problem.

i was in Iron River 2 days ago.  i dont live far from the u.p.   i see deer everywhere.   not kidding, they are dead all up and down the highway.    are you going to tell me that the deer population in the u.p. is in dire straits while the deer population in n.e. wisconsin is healthy and strong?   im not trying to rile here, but you keep saying "what i see with my own eyes" and then you keep posting information, and then saying that info is wrong, because you've seen so yourself!   can you honestly see every deer in the upper noodleula?  can you see every wolf?   i imagine this post might anger you, because that seems to be the trend here, but i'm from almost the same region as you.   the deer are fine here.   do you honestly think the Department of Natural Resources would let the deer population fall below a huntable level?   do you know how much $$$ they'd stand to lose?    c'mon now.   wolves are fine too, a natural part of the areas ecostructure.

[Melvin]

You see, I work in Iron River. I've been meandering around this area since i was 2.

Yes, there are dead deer on the highway. Not as many as before.

I posted a number from the DNR that I don't think is small in any way.

The DNR is realizing it's mistake and I can say with much certainty that wolves will be de-listed from the endangered species list very soon, after which time the state may decide to open a limited season on them. They cannot suppress the public outcry much longer and they know it. Did they purposely allow the wolf population to get out of hand? I highly doubt it. Like I said, the original program numbers were supposed to be ~200 wolves. However, the amount of game has allowed that number to more than triple and due to regulations the authorities hands are tied.

The whole $$$ issue is the real heart of the matter. If something isn't done soon it will hurt a lot of people in their wallets. Not to mention their tummies.

Do you want to know the conspiracy theory for the re-introduction of wolves and cougars to the UP? Many believe the insurance companies are sliding cash to the state to help keep the number of car-deer accidents lower. It sounds outlandish on the surface, but it does make one pause to think.

Oh, by the way... Stay outta da U.P. Irish, we don't like you cheeseheads coming around and giving our sheep da VD.   

[IrishOne]

Do you want to know the conspiracy theory for the re-introduction of wolves and cougars to the UP? Many believe the insurance companies are sliding cash to the state to help keep the number of car-deer accidents lower. It sounds outlandish on the surface, but it does make one pause to think.

i've heard of this, and many of my hunting buddies here in WI believe it to be true.   i personally think it could have merit, and wouldn't be surprised a bit if the DNR was getting kickbacks to embellish population numbers.   did you hear of the "earn-a-buck" bullcrap we had going here for a little while?    that started to raise a few eyebrows 'round here.    ridiculous program, gone by the wayside for this season, thank god.   and you are correct, $$$ is the monster behind it, as per usual.    i agree with you 100% on this.   i just think wolves have their place too, in moderation of course.   obviously too heavy of a predatory population is a detriment.   we live in an awesome region of the country, with the whitetail hunting being one of the best parts.  if the stupid freaking insurance conglomerates are really up this garbage, and manage to get their way, then i have no hope for the DNR.  it's hard to tell what's real and what isn't these days, what with all the scandal in virtually every corner of our lives.   one must be very careful in what he takes as gospel.   everyone seems out to pull the wool over the eyes of the everyman.    

P.S. all conspiracy theory aside, i still believe the deer population is doing better than ok.   i see them virtually everywhere!   i saw one on Velp Ave. in GB last week, bounding off through the cemetary.   that's right in the middle of town!    they are thick, and they are healthy, and i can't wait to blow a big hole thru the middle of one  

[IrishOne]

Oh, by the way... Stay outta da U.P. Irish, we don't like you cheeseheads coming around and giving our sheep da VD.    

our sheep are better looking anyways, and have grown resistant to most local VD  

[Melvin]

Well good luck to ya Irish. I've already got my doe in the freezer and planned on spending rifle season with a camera in my hands. (Of course I'll have the '06 along as well, you know, just in case that once-in-a-lifetime buck appears.)

Another thing to consider that has some of us yoopers a bit uptight is the emergence of chronic wasting disease in northern Wisconsin. I can't remember if it was in Forest or Vilas county last year.

So many threats to the herd and not many viable solutions.

Anyway, I guess it's obvious that this issue weighs pretty heavily on my mind. I would like to profusely apologize to the folks that I called names and the folks who I dismissed as "know nothings". It was unbecoming and does absolutely nothing to further my argument.