Author Topic: game play  (Read 2523 times)

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23874
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: game play
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2011, 11:04:01 AM »
I haven't given it much thought...but at the very least there should be some kind of game mechanic or facet of the design which would prohibit the hordes from just ignoring each other while they attack scantly defended bases...perhaps smaller maps to go with the newly diminished player base, with unavoidable action packed choke points! :)

We had one system tested that was actually trying for this. The base capture order, where only 1-2 bases per frontline could be captured at all.
Was the most horrific thing I have seen in my AH days, even surpassing the arena caps  :noid
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline coombz

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3701
Re: game play
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2011, 11:09:55 AM »
Snailman don't be a Debbie Downer :D  you have a wealth of AH experience to draw on, any thoughts on how you would tackle the stale gameplay? Do you think it would all be better again if we magically got double the current player base? Or do you think that the problems run deeper than that (i.e. game design promoting boring gameplay as I have opined)...?  

or do you disagree that it's stale in the first place?  ;o  

:)
Did you see my dad on dogfights yet?
I'll be seeing you face to face possibly next month.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23874
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: game play
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2011, 11:17:16 AM »
or do you disagree that it's stale in the first place?  ;o  

:)

Lol, that's a tricky question, because it's a highly subjective matter. If you play for long enough, about any game will get stale. ;)

But I do think there is room for improvement, and a need to increase the appeal both for long time players (not as important tho) as well as new players (utmost important). But then this applies to every game on the market, all the time. :)


And for ideas.., yes I have plenty ideas all the time, but most of them simply would not work at all  :lol
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 11:19:03 AM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Rich52

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
Re: game play
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2011, 12:04:19 PM »
Quite a lot. Significant less players do have an effect on gameplay ;)


When money is getting tight, it's the "unnecessary" expenses that people are going to drop fist - and more often than not it's not the actual player alone who determines if AH is necessary or not  :uhoh

Yeah but at the same time, bad economy and all, new wiz bang titles are selling by the zillions at $50 to $60 a pop. The fact is $15 is a single trip to MacDonalds, and let me tell you somthing about Yanks. The last thing on our list for "cutting expenses" is cable TV and Internet. We will fry rats for dinner before doing so, unless that is the particular app has become boring and not worth the $$. Like Aces High has.

Dont get me wrong. Even tho I dont play this game anymore I dont want to see it fail. The WW-2 flight genre holds a place in my heart and for years I loved getting slaughtered in my bombers by guys like you and flying my beloved Yak-9. But the game has not changed with the times and it just became stale. I lost my overtime due to health issues and my wife lost her job however money is not the reason I left AH. And I truly wish the game well but one graphics upgrade in all these years just isnt going to cut it.

And frankly I find the Hitech crowd to be a little to much on the arrogant and elitest side. They take their customers for granted.
Yes, your on "Ignore"

Offline Noir

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5961
Re: game play
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2011, 12:39:40 PM »
The game should be captivating enough to get higher money priority. Good games are addictive by definition and people subscribe despite common sense.

for starters get rid of the large maps.

then get us new maps AT LEAST

and third introduce a new game play mechanism, something really new not just a larger town or another useless thing. The game needs rhythm, objectives, adrenaline rushes and teamplay!
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8054
Re: game play
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2011, 12:42:51 PM »
I haven't given it much thought...but at the very least there should be some kind of game mechanic or facet of the design which would prohibit the hordes from just ignoring each other while they attack scantly defended bases...perhaps smaller maps to go with the newly diminished player base, with unavoidable action packed choke points! :)

Easy to say, but as Lusche mentioned, one implementation of that kind of scenario failed spectacularly.  I wasn't there for it, but from what I've read on the forums, blood flowed freely from the monitors of the players, brimstone fell from the skies... the oceans boiled... etc.

In my opinion there isn't anything inherently wrong (in online gaming in general) with bands of lower skilled players banding together to acheive something for once, i,.e. hordeing or  'zerging', as long as you get some fun gameplay from it (i.e. killing 40+ man groups with 8 guys in the old fantasy mmo DAoC :aok )

We're on the same page there.  My game sessions pretty much revolve around defending a front somewhere.

In fact, two large groups of planes clashing sounds like a jolly good time to me. The problem is that there is nothing pushing players in this direction (the direction of action, competition and in my opinion, fun)...

That's the fight I am ideally looking for.  Big red bardar vs big green bardar.  I come in high and look for red guys doing the same thing.  Fun for all.

It's too easy to just avoid combat or any kind of test of skill all together, and that to me speaks of poor game design - unless of course you are designing a game for the kind of people that play WoW pve and stuff like that...

...come to think of it a lot of the AH player base probably does fit into that kind of category (casual, non-competitive), just with added aviation enthusiasm...so perhaps the problem is that two different breeds of flight sim pilot are being forced into the same arena? Thoughts? :)

This is something I have believed for quite some time as well.  A lot of people don't look at an online game as something to play for the challenge.  Instead, they're looking for something to take the easiest path through to victory.  They're basically applying PvE tactics to a PvP environment, and gameplay suffers for it.

One of my favorite things about this game is also what I think causes the main problems.  There is no facility to 'balance' things.  If the other side sets itself up right, you can wind up in a truly unwinnable situation through no fault of your own.

What I find fun is trying to find a way to prevail against whatever setup they have thrown at me.  Large numbers inbound?  Up from the next base over in something fast and work the edges of the crowd/go for the highest value targets, like bombers or goons.

The way I see it, the gameplay you get in a large, unrestricted open arena where people can basically do what they like is what we get every day in here.  The path of least resistance is sought by the majority, and followed through on.  The only 'goal' for goal oriented people to fasten onto is winning the war.

Unfortunately, the most effective way to do this is to roll undefended bases as quickly as possible.  Anything people do other than that is only slowing your side down.  If one of the other countries is doing the same thing, it is faster to let them take one of your bases and roll it undefended later, than it is to defend it.  About the only time defense works to help your side is if relatively few of your people can actually stop a rolling horde cold.  That doesn't happen very often.

I can't think of a system of gameplay that retains the open world concept that can get around this.  In fact, I believe it is by its very nature what you get with unrestricted side-based combat.

What it seems to me would give a lot of people what they want is some kind of goal-based small arena setup almost like Counterstrike, where you've got a map, and 16 or 32 players on a side, and a time limited goal like capture the field, or defend the bombers through to bomb the airfield, or what have you.  It would be a fair fight, people would be assigned sides to ensure numbers, and they'd have some kind of 'bite sized' fun.

If you look to the left, there are custom arenas available that could do just this.  Nobody seems to want to set it up and run it.  This kind of gameplay is... what's a good word... painful to me.  I would rather play pattycake with a grizzly bear than fly in an arena with that much restriction.

People often believe a graphics update is what will fix the game.  Graphics upgrades are swell and all, but if the core gameplay doesn't change, how does it extend the life of the game?  Fighting in the main arena, you're still doing the same things regardless of how pretty the smoke looks.

It will also shut down a good portion of the client base who aren't running decent rigs.  I agree with some of what Rich52 says in his post, but being able to afford internet is one thing.  Being able to upgrade your PC to run a game with more modern graphics is another.

And frankly I find the Hitech crowd to be a little to much on the arrogant and elitest side. They take their customers for granted.

About the only criticism I would levy against them is they perhaps don't sugarcoat their disagreement with the playerbase.  I personally find it quite refreshing when someone posts a bad idea and gets the response 'That is a bad idea.'  Not every idea is valid, or practical.  Another thing that quite often happens is, they get a wish for 'something to improve the game' that nobody can adequately define.

They make their choices, and live with them.  If an example of a company that doesn't subscribe to that train of thought is desired, take a good look at SOE's MMO division.  In particular, take a look at the history of Star Wars Galaxies.  Bask in the horror of design by committee.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline greens

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1413
Re: game play
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2011, 01:07:19 PM »
you guys better get it together. the main arena should not be this dead at this time of night. reminds me of air warrior.
Ya........it sucks when greens aint around to kill ya at night. sorry bud....I will be back someday...... :confused:    i hope..........
_-=ELIM EAGLES=-_
in loving memory of OZ <Eagles21>
 miss you bro!

Offline Noir

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5961
Re: game play
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2011, 01:15:52 PM »
And frankly I find the Hitech crowd to be a little to much on the arrogant and elitest side. They take their customers for granted.

+1 we look like fools when asking for improvements, but that feeling comes partly from the BBS old timers that feel free to lay judgment on anyone that don't agree with them without anyone hint of respect.
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26837
Re: game play
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2011, 05:02:13 PM »
+1 we look like fools when asking for improvements, but that feeling comes partly from the BBS old timers that feel free to lay judgment on anyone that don't agree with them without anyone hint of respect.

Respect? Your post does not show any respect.


As a business you need to know a little about the business side to have a true grasp.


Not all Ah customers are even on the BBS. There is way more to the business of AH than many even think.

I'm sure HiTech is not ignoring anyone. You may feel that way at times but you are not the only one in the game.

This game has ebbed and flowed for all the years I have been a member. It is the nature of the beast trying to keep so many folks entertained. I'm sure there is a lot of thought put in to every change, addition, or deletion. Someone doesn't just all of a sudden say, "hey let's do this".

If your truely at wits end or feel there is something missing that you have some ideas on, you can email HiTech with your concerns/ideas.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 05:06:20 PM by Shuffler »
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline ghi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2669
Re: game play
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2011, 06:36:36 PM »

for starters get rid of the large maps.

then get us new maps AT LEAST

and third introduce a new game play mechanism, something really new not just a larger town or another useless thing. The game needs rhythm, objectives, adrenaline rushes and teamplay!
I agree!
 over the past years HTC did all its best to make " tolsheders" life harder; huge towns, 40% bases captured needed for reset,this AWACS radar catching even grasshoppers without NOE option, arena split,HQ and strats just useless without any effect on gameplay...... SO,tolsdeders like myself we have to convert to furballism or get lost........  . If a 2 weeker joines the game what's his goal in this gaming without tactic strategic teamplay? getting nailed for  next 5 years until becomes a fighter ace ?
It's sad to  see on this board and game kind of tacit encouragement in blaming and insulting  large better organized SQDs, from MAWs,BOPS,LCA, Vguys..... for their style of playing. Oh, yes, if you are not a skilled fighter furballer you are a tolsheder dweeb.You know what this large organized sqds, the friendship and organizing  raids  made this game more fun and  kept MA full over years.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 06:43:27 PM by ghi »

Offline -aper-

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
Re: game play
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2011, 05:23:25 AM »
I dont think this business has ever been about keeping customers.  Most People just burn out after a hardcore year and half to two years.  Where HTC has always been successful is in bringing fresh blood in on a pretty constant basis, replacing the old burned out and stale accounts with new ones. 

AH was much superior to other mass multiplayer games (WarBirds, Fighter Ace, Air Warrior). These three were like a flight schools for AH. They were bleeding and HTC was receiving a hardcore customers they could only dream about - nicely trained, ready for action. No wonder these people have become an excellent AH players and very loyal AH customers quite soon. But this is over. All the "flight schools" are closed now. The task to get a new player into the game is much harder - the newcomers are helpless - no ACM, no fighting/shooting skills. (Chilli and other people have mentioned it already). In this case after two weeks of a very hard time new people most likely will not accept pay to play offer. And that's how "People now are not interested in combat flight simulators" statement appeared. It is not true. People did not become any dumber (or smarter) in last 10 years.
As an example the boxed game (IL-2) provides the person with "flying school"  based on offline game with single missions and campaigns - which can be started from very easy level and improved later on up to quite hardcore sim. If the player is bored with offline game he can go online and play on any of "small-server" free arenas. No need to subscribe - he is IN already. IL-2 developers had grown their community then started to release different boxed games which covered different war theaters effectively filling the planeset with quite amazing variety of war planes from 1939 up to 1946 and as a feedback got more and more customers interested in their game. It was a quite obvious that the next Il-2 development step would be towards mass-multiplayer which is based on quite steady ground (huge number of customers and a flight school behind.)
AH could also got a good flight school. The Combat Tour was in development for 6 or 8 years (correct me if I'am wrong) and within a few conception tweaks could become a good training base for newcomers. Unfortunately the production was halted. It is even more strange that HTC did not use a good features of CT that they have already built. For example HT made and an excellent AI code for drones and it could be used to create training arenas for new people who could play cooperative game against drones even after two weeks trial has expired. Drone Server could check the number of players and send an equal number of drones against them using different random choices of planes:  fighters, bombers, attack planes, bombers with escort,  etc. There could be tons of options and features even such funny little things like if the player shot down the drone, the drone PM him a message like "was nice HO, spit dweeb " or something like this :) and if the player can figure out how to PM back he can "talk" for a while with a chat bot getting used quickly to the Main Arena common language:) 
There are lots of things the could be done but unfortunately were not done despite the game was in development for 10+ years. I believe the three main flaws now are:
1) No flight school, 2) Bad pricing plan 3) Pretty same (old school) gameplay with quite incomplete planeset.
The first two strike newcomers badly, the third one hits existing hardcore players.

As a results we now have a quite sad picture. So far it is for AUS time zone but give it two years...

Offline Getback

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6364
Re: game play
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2011, 06:01:24 AM »
Seano, seen you around since AW. <S>

I couldn't sleep and was off work the night before last. All I did was bomb, bomb, bomb. Bombing is not my thing btw.

Still though I'm happy to see so many on in the evenings, yes even the large herds.

  Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
Re: game play
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2011, 12:18:51 PM »
The game should be captivating enough to get higher money priority. Good games are addictive by definition and people subscribe despite common sense.

for starters get rid of the large maps.

then get us new maps AT LEAST

and third introduce a new game play mechanism, something really new not just a larger town or another useless thing. The game needs rhythm, objectives, adrenaline rushes and teamplay!

 :banana:  Custom Arenas Y'all  :banana:  Pyro just introduced a new Terrain Editor..... This month is time for me to hop off the BBs and on the Custom Arena learning curve.  So far so good, and must add this feature is just as addicting as the game itself has been.  If you build it THEY will come..... :old:

AH was much superior to other mass multiplayer games (WarBirds, Fighter Ace, Air Warrior). These three were like a flight schools for AH. They were bleeding and HTC was receiving a hardcore customers they could only dream about - nicely trained, ready for action. No wonder these people have become an excellent AH players and very loyal AH customers quite soon. But this is over. All the "flight schools" are closed now. The task to get a new player into the game is much harder - the newcomers are helpless - no ACM, no fighting/shooting skills. (Chilli and other people have mentioned it already). In this case after two weeks of a very hard time new people most likely will not accept pay to play offer. And that's how "People now are not interested in combat flight simulators" statement appeared. It is not true. People did not become any dumber (or smarter) in last 10 years.


There is a very functional Training Arena, but newcomers jump right into the more populated arenas and probably learn bad habits.  I know that all I did for the first 3 months or so was to go right at my opponent guns blazing. 

A revamped perk system of rewards for newcomers, that has to be certified by an actual trainer before receiving their perks (wings), wouldn't make them fighter Aces, but at least they will know to hit "B" to drop a bomb and know how to scissor to avoid an attacker or reverse the attack.  AH will definitely benefit from having better trained new subscribers.  Even the choice of planes can benefit new subscribers.   Every plane has a different learning curve, and some obvious choices could be encouraged to learn on.

Offline Noir

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5961
Re: game play
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2011, 12:22:25 PM »
:banana:  Custom Arenas Y'all  :banana:  Pyro just introduced a new Terrain Editor..... This month is time for me to hop off the BBs and on the Custom Arena learning curve.  So far so good, and must add this feature is just as addicting as the game itself has been.  If you build it THEY will come..... :old:


I was thinking in massively multiplayer terms
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23874
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: game play
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2011, 12:53:12 PM »
There is a very functional Training Arena, but newcomers jump right into the more populated arenas and probably learn bad habits. 

That's because of two reasons. First, we are playing a game for fun and for many, if not most (I include myself in this) the thought of having to train before playing isn't that fun at all. I just wanted to try flying and fighting, not going through any instructional program.
And the other one: Just like with regular arenas - Nobody will go there if nobody is there. That's why I was often rolling my eyes when I read the "go TA" 'advice' on country channel in game, because sending newbs into an empty TA doesn't look very nice to them...
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman