No Red Bull 2012

[RTHolmes]

as far as insurance is concerned it is all connected, by the people willing to underwrite the risks. the big liability claims for Reno will impact rates for anything even slightly related to one degree or another. the closer the risk is to the Reno setup, the bigger the impact.

[MachFly]

The Red Bull boys were overdue for a safety standdown when they finally blew the whistle and kudos to them for doing it without needing the hindsight of a tragedy.

There are times you need to stop what you're doing and take a few steps backward to see the big picture in order to move forward. MachFly you really need to try it.

Safety isn't just a flag you raise and proclaim the status. It needs to be cultural in order to be effective and that goes for any industry not just aviation.

I expect they'll be back and if they do their job better than ever.

I understand why they stopped it in 2010, and cancelling it for 2011 was probably justified as well. But why do it in 2012? A year and a half should be enough to correct everything they did not like.

[MachFly]

as far as insurance is concerned it is all connected, by the people willing to underwrite the risks. the big liability claims for Reno will impact rates for anything even slightly related to one degree or another. the closer the risk is to the Reno setup, the bigger the impact.

I disagree. Unless this crash was something completely new that no one ever seen (which it was not), it should not have a large effect. It is not the first time an airplane crashed due to structural failure.

[RTHolmes]

disagree if you like but thats how it works (I do this stuff for a living )

[MachFly]

disagree if you like but thats how it works (I do this stuff for a living )

When you have an F1 crash NASCAR does not suffer and insurance prices for personal cars don't increase. It's the same thing here.

[flight17]

Red Bull are the ones who stopped the competition, no one did it for them.

but it doesnt matter. An accident of any kind at an airshow, air race or reno is all being precieved as the same thing by the general public. The general public fails to recognize that all three types of events are completely different from one another and all have different risks associated with each type.

I think Red Bull is just taking a hard look at all their ducks and are trying to get them back in a row if they woddled off. Both of the safety end of the spectrum and on the legal side of the spectrum.

[RTHolmes]

trust me when a NASCAR racer comes off the track and kills 60 spectators, the rates wont just go up for that driver/team/car/venue. they will go up for every driver/team/car/venue, to one degree or another.

[MachFly]

but it doesnt matter. An accident of any kind at an airshow, air race or reno is all being precieved as the same thing by the general public. The general public fails to recognize that all three types of events are completely different from one another and all have different risks associated with each type.

If the general public decides not to go to air races that's their right, but they don't have the power to stop them. FAA technically can, but only in US. Red Bull races are hosted all over the world, only a fraction of them happens in US.  

[flight17]

When you have an F1 crash NASCAR does not suffer and insurance prices for personal cars don't increase. It's the same thing here.

thats not comparing apples to apples. first off nothing personal is changing for cars or insurance rates for aircraft. Its between different types of events. However even still its not quite the same because with aircraft, we are talking about a larger possible damage amount and fatality rate

If Nascar had a big crash that caused injury to 100's if people in the grandstand, i would bet money it would cause F1 insurance rates to increase as well.

[MachFly]

11 people died at Reno, not 60 or 100.

I can't find the right car crash, but I'm sure there had to be some event where a car hit the audience. There were too many races for that not to happen.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

When you have an F1 crash NASCAR does not suffer and insurance prices for personal cars don't increase. It's the same thing here.

When you have a serious motor sports crash that involves spectator injuries/fatalities, it does effect all sanctioning bodies, some more than others, but all to an extent.

The number of underwriters handling any form of motor sports events is rather small and limited. You need to understand things like actuarial pools and other risk management methods.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

11 people died at Reno, not 60 or 100.

I can't find the right car crash, but I'm sure there had to be some event where a car hit the audience. There were too many races for that not to happen.

There have been several, and insurance premiums have risen after all of them. Trust me, I pay premiums every time I pay an entry fee. In fact, the insurance premium on my NHRA entry fee for each and every event has doubled in just a few years.

[flight17]

If the general public decides not to go to air races that's their right, but they don't have the power to stop them.

Yes they do. Not through laws but by practicalities.

The first lawsuit for the Reno Air Race is 26million. I believe that is for just one individual. Maybe a handful if that. Its is against the Reno Air Race organization, the P-51 team and someone else i believe. multiply 26million by 70ish (numbered injured or killed) and you can see this can be quite expensive. If the worse case scenario happens and they side in the favor of the families. They are looking at hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage. That alone would put a stop to the Reno Air races forever.

The people that died that day knew it was a dangerous sport and it even says on the ticket about liability. But if this suit wins its going to open up a large can of worms for every event that has to do with Aviation.

Hell, at my college. Each flight school must be able to carry 5 millions dollar policies for every student and flight they do. 5 million dollars for a Cessna 172, Piper Warrior 3 or Diamond DA-20 that only cost ~150-250K each. Now imagine the rates an event must have. I can easily see some of these events carrying policies on the verge of 100million now. Now think about what they will have to carry in the future.  

[MachFly]

There have been several, and insurance premiums have risen after all of them. Trust me, I pay premiums every time I pay an entry fee. In fact, the insurance premium on my NHRA entry fee for each and every event has doubled in just a few years.

Did not know that.

Have they ever canceled anything for a long period of time?

[MachFly]

Yes they do. Not through laws but by practicalities.

The first lawsuit for the Reno Air Race is 26million. I believe that is for just one individual. Maybe a handful if that. Its is against the Reno Air Race organization, the P-51 team and someone else i believe. multiply 26million by 70ish and you can see this can be quite expensive. If the worse case scenario happens and they side in the favor of the families. They are looking at hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage. That alone would put a stop to the Reno Air races forever.

That's just wrong.
You should not be able to make money of someone's death.

The people that died that day knew it was a dangerous sport and it even says on the ticket about liability. But if this suit wins its going to open up a large can of worms for every event that has to do with Aviation.

Exactly, no one forced them to come and watch and no one said it was safe.