No Red Bull 2012

[flight17]

but I'm sure there had to be some event where a car hit the audience. There were too many races for that not to happen.

Exactly. However you must look at it historically too. When an accident happens at a car race, what do they do afterwards? they make changes to the track, maybe to the grandstand, etc to try and prevent it from happening again and they are able to make it almost fool proof.

They cant do that with accidents involving aircraft because every flight and every race or demo is different. At some point whether its from the Reno accident or a future accident, they will change it so much that it will take away from the whole experience and almost make it pointless to do the event in the first place. For Reno that means having the grandstands further away from the track which will take away from the whole experience of seeing the races overhead. realistically i could see the grand stands having to be half mile away from the track their, but at that distance, who really would want to go? i don't think i would. Personally, i don't think any one of those families should be able to sue over their injuries or losses either, but that is a different discussion.

[MachFly]

Exactly. However you must look at it historically too. When an accident happens at a car race, what do they do afterwards? they make changes to the track, maybe to the grandstand, etc to try and prevent it from happening again and they are able to make it almost fool proof.

They cant do that with accidents involving aircraft because every flight and every race or demo is different. At some point whether its from the Reno accident or a future accident, they will change it so much that it will take away from the whole experience and almost make it pointless to do the event in the first place. For Reno that means having the grandstands further away from the track which will take away from the whole experience of seeing the races overhead. realistically i could see the grand stands having to be half mile away from the track their, but at that distance, who really would want to go? i don't think i would. Personally, i don't think any one of those families should be able to sue over their injuries or losses either, but that is a different discussion.

True.

In case of Red Bull though the planes do not fly over the crowd and quite often are actually lower than the crowd itself. Also in Red Bull you can change the track, just like for cars.

[flight17]

Exactly, no one forced them to come and watch and no one said it was safe.

But that's where the issue comes up. Even though they were warned, in this day and age, people still are able to sue over something that they were warned about.

I believe in this case now, they are trying to claim negligence on the part of all the deffending parties by saying that the aircraft was over mod-ed  and was a crash waiting to happen and wasnt flown safely. If they can "prove" that (i use prove very loosly, its gonna really be BS their way to get a Judge to side with them), then every single crash from now on will be opened up to this type of suit. And as long as we have lawyers who come to "Help" the families and make money off of these cases, the lawsuits will always be there.

 

[MachFly]

But that's where the issue comes up. Even though they were warned, in this day and age, people still are able to sue over something that they were warned about.

I believe in this case now, they are trying to claim negligence on the part of all the deffending parties by saying that the aircraft was over mod-ed  and was a crash waiting to happen and wasnt flown safely. If they can "prove" that (i use prove very loosly, its gonna really be BS their way to get a Judge to side with them), then every single crash from now on will be opened up to this type of suit. And as long as we have lawyers who come to "Help" the families and make money off of these cases, the lawsuits will always be there.

I do wish the system worked different and you could not do that.
But if we discuss this particular topic the thread might get Skuzzified, so let's try to stay away from discussing the courts (might be looked at as politics).

[flight17]

True.

In case of Red Bull though the planes do not fly over the crowd and quite often are actually lower than the crowd itself. Also in Red Bull you can change the track, just like for cars.

true, but remember its not just people. Property damage could happen which also might result in fatalities. Red Bull does have one thing in its favor though which is the fact that most if not all of their "races" are held over water which should mean limited potential damage, but there still is that off chance on the way to the track something happens.

[MachFly]

true, but remember its not just people. Property damage could happen which also might result in fatalities. Red Bull does have one thing in its favor though which is the fact that most if not all of their "races" are held over water which should mean limited potential damage, but there still is that off chance on the way to the track something happens.

Yeah but there is always a risk in property damage, no need to cancel the race because of it.

[CAP1]

Adilson Kindlemann, MXS-R, in Perth, Australia.

(Image removed from quote.)

c'mon dood.....i know you saw the video.  he suffered an accelerated stall, and recovered said stall, mere seconds before hitting the water. he hit wheels first, wings level, low speed, and when the engine cowling caught the water, the plane flipped. he was uninjured(if i recall correctly), and his airplane was repairable.

 if you have better luck than i do with the search function, you can find another thread about it right on this bbs, in which the video was linked./

[CAP1]

Didn't Red Bull have a modified WWII-era Bearcat (F8F) under its sponsoring portfolio recently?

MachFly wins the Krust-O-Meter award this week.

MachFly, you should know better than I do, that both type of aircraft, 70-year gap or not, are classified in the same class by the FAA, yes?  Infront of a judge and court of law, it's a potatoe-potato arguement.

 does that mean that the judge is mensa? 

[CAP1]

Wasn't it a Red Bull race where two planes touched, one guy bailed out and the other died?

 i think that was an airshow in the uk....think it was a pony and a skyraider that touched......

[MachFly]

c'mon dood.....i know you saw the video.  he suffered an accelerated stall, and recovered said stall, mere seconds before hitting the water. he hit wheels first, wings level, low speed, and when the engine cowling caught the water, the plane flipped. he was uninjured(if i recall correctly), and his airplane was repairable.

 if you have better luck than i do with the search function, you can find another thread about it right on this bbs, in which the video was linked./

There you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR68OIpcX4

[B-17]

The gov is considering making energy drink 18+ up here in quebec. They would only be for sale in SAQ (société des alcools), the state 'company' that sells the booze in QC.

Yeah, the LCBO of Quebec. Ilike that place; they have funny signs.

"l'alcool est illégale sous l'age de 19-- meme si ta maman te dite que c'est d'accord."

"Alchohol is illegal under 19-- even if your mummy says it's ok."

[Golfer]

Alejandro Maclean was killed last summer in Spain not in conjunction with a race though he was a race pilot.

That had nothing to do with the Duxford Airshow P-51/A1 collision.

As I said before the Red Bull boys were long overdue for a safety stand down. If you fail to see how/why with their high incident rate (to be expected, to a point) can be reduced and lessons learned applied in the interest of safety you're not looking very hard.

I expect them to be back, exciting, outstanding entertainment and safer than ever in the future.

[CAP1]

There you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR68OIpcX4

try looking at this one....
http://www.redbullairrace.com/cs/Satellite/en_air/Video/Crash-dive-Down-Under-021242832365305

 took me a minute to find it.

 to the left down slightly is the onboard camera........it shows slow motion, in which you can see the wings stall. you can also see the recovery, just before he contacts the water.

http://avstop.com/news_april_2010/red_bull_air_race_plane_crash_in_perth_pilot_adilson_kindlemann_ok.htm

 here's matt halls same stall, only htat he managed to recover in time to keep flying. you can see it at about the 20 second mark.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CB27K-wIsM&feature=related

and another angle near the end of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO7BuPG_vVo

 these guys are incredibly skilled airmen. they know what they're doing. golfer has this right. it's a very good thing that they chose to stop this series for a time.
 as much as i'd like to be able to be watching them race, it doesn't matter 1 year, or 5 years.....when they come back, they will do so with a vengeance, they will do so safely, and they will more than likely make the series better than it ever was.

[MachFly]

these guys are incredibly skilled airmen. they know what they're doing. golfer has this right. it's a very good thing that they chose to stop this series for a time.
 as much as i'd like to be able to be watching them race, it doesn't matter 1 year, or 5 years.....when they come back, they will do so with a vengeance, they will do so safely, and they will more than likely make the series better than it ever was.

I never said that they should have never stopped them, I said that a year and a half should have been enough for them to make the appropriate changed in order to make it safer.

[CAP1]

I never said that they should have never stopped them, I said that a year and a half should have been enough for them to make the appropriate changed in order to make it safer.

 i understand that, but i suspect that there's a LOT more than you or i know about that they need to look into.