Components of fighter score...

[Vinkman]

Apart from the B-29, this doesn't match my observations in the MA at all. Even with lots of fighters getting shot up due to their stupidity on the bombers 6 o'clock, the buffs still take much more than they dish out. And most of the time I see fighters going boom instead of a controlled descent & ditch anyway.

I can agree with that in situations where multiple fighters are attacking the formation. But single fighters vs the formatins...my experience is that teh buffs usually can handle themselves pretty well. I'm not counting B-25s, A-20s or other ground attack planes. 

[mtnman]

I don;t find killing buff easy. They're tough and have lots of guns. I find killing a fighter 1v1 easier than killing a buff formation. If the buff doesn't kill me, It usually damages me enough that I'm not fighting anything else after I encounter them.

The K/D of B-17s is .40, and B-24s is .35, B-29 is .99, and Lancs is the lowest at .22.  But I think its artificially low due to the number of ditches and landed bandits because they fight right over the bandits base. I bet if you counted a damaged fighter that had to break off a buff attack as a kill, buffs would have K/D > 1.0

You're not seriously relating your effectiveness against them to their overall K/D are you?

It has nothing to do with what their K/D's are in the MA.  It's how you set up your attack, and how well you shoot once you have them in range that matters.

[mtnman]

I can agree with that in situations where multiple fighters are attacking the formation. But single fighters vs the formatins...my experience is that teh buffs usually can handle themselves pretty well. I'm not counting B-25s, A-20s or other ground attack planes. 

I don't attack formations with "help" from anyone else if I can help it at all.  Actually, if there are friendlies that are interested in the same bombers I'm after I'm more likely to take damage because I'll be in a hurry to kill them all before they get too worried about the other friendly.

Bombers are essentially helpless if you attack them properly.  I can think of only a few bomber pilots that stand much of a chance, and even then...

[Vinkman]

You're not seriously relating your effectiveness against them to their overall K/D are you?

It has nothing to do with what their K/D's are in the MA.  It's how you set up your attack, and how well you shoot once you have them in range that matters.

I'm stating that buffs are not easy pickings, and making a case for the data confirming that.  A single fighter attacking a bomber flown by a good gunner, is more than likely going to die before he gets to pad his hit percentage much.   

So what is your full proof approach to padding your hit percentage against a formation of 18K B-17s?

[coombz]

Bombers are essentially helpless if you attack them properly.  

+1

of course, the trouble for me is doing each pass properly   but I agree with that, actually they are easy pickings if you've got the requisite alt and ammo

[grizz441]

Bombers are essentially helpless if you attack them properly.  I can think of only a few bomber pilots that stand much of a chance, and even then...

Not necessarily true against Mk108 aircraft.  No matter what angle you take, you still have to get very close to record enough tater hits to take a bomber down and when you get that close, a good gunner will be able to damage you, regardless of your angle.  I always try to take good angles and i'd say 80% of the time I do not take damage from bombers, but about 20% of the time he'll make a good shot as I am getting close.

[Vinkman]

Not necessarily true against Mk108 aircraft.  No matter what angle you take, you still have to get very close to record enough tater hits to take a bomber down and when you get that close, a good gunner will be able to damage you, regardless of your angle.  I always try to take good angles and i'd say 80% of the time I do not take damage from bombers, but about 20% of the time he'll make a good shot as I am getting close.

I do manange to dive in from good angles at high enough speed to make some close range passes without getting shot, but I miss my shots. I eventually make about 6 or 7 passes at the formation with a results percent breakdown that looks like this:

30% run out of ammo with no recorded kill
30% Get one kill or more
30% collide with the bomber and crash.
10% of the time get shot down by the bomber.


And that's once you've climbed sufficiently over the top of the formation, which is hard to do if you are below them when you spot them.

[icepac]

I don;t find killing buff easy. They're tough and have lots of guns. I find killing a fighter 1v1 easier than killing a buff formation. If the buff doesn't kill me, It usually damages me enough that I'm not fighting anything else after I encounter them.

True.....when I happen upon formations of b17s with escorts, I feel like I won a rare high altitude dogfight as a prize.

[Lusche]

I'm stating that buffs are not easy pickings, and making a case for the data confirming that.  A single fighter attacking a bomber flown by a good gunner, is more than likely going to die before he gets to pad his hit percentage much.   

And there we have the problem. You are assuming a "good gunner". A gunner that good he will be able to shoot you up even when you do a by the book attack is exceptionally rare. At standard MA altitudes, the average bomber is posing a much less threat to a fighter than the average enemy fighter

The notion bombers (except B-29) are generally more dangerous and much less efficient for "padding hit%" borders on being absurd. 

[Vinkman]

And there we have the problem. You are assuming a "good gunner". A gunner that good he will be able to shoot you up even when you do a by the book attack is exceptionally rare. At standard MA altitudes, the average bomber is posing a much less threat to a fighter than the average enemy fighter

The notion bombers (except B-29) are generally more dangerous and much less efficient for "padding hit%" borders on being absurd. 

More dangerous and much less efficient than what?

What I said was, I don't think Buffs are an easy way to pad hit%. There's nothing absurd about that statement.

I did not say that hit percentage against bombers was going to be lower than fighters. That would be absurd.

[mtnman]

More dangerous and much less efficient than what?

For Hit% (in Fighter rank) you need to shoot fighters or bombers (C47's count as bombers).  Those are your choices.

Bombers are much easier to hit than fighters.  They're much larger, much less agile, slower, and fly much more predictable flight-paths.

Compared to fighters, bombers are fairly simple to hit.  Hitting them with a higher percentage of your shots fired is what allows you to drive up your hit%.

On a "dangerous" level, bombers pose much less of a threat than fighters.  For one, they're almost entirely "passive".  They cannot attack with any efficiency, and seldom even try.  They cannot catch you.  And, if you launch a well-planned attack from above, they have little chance of doing any damage to you.  A tiny fraction of bomber gunners are good enough to be able to defend against that sort of attack.  There used to be a guy named 999000 that was wicked-good with the B17 guns, and even he was beatable with a well-executed attack (is he still playing?).

What I said was, I don't think Buffs are an easy way to pad hit%. There's nothing absurd about that statement.

They're easy to hit.  Admittedly, hit% is the one factor I consider "most difficult" to pad, but it's still somewhat easy to pad by shooting lots of bombers.

[mtnman]

Not necessarily true against Mk108 aircraft.  No matter what angle you take, you still have to get very close to record enough tater hits to take a bomber down and when you get that close, a good gunner will be able to damage you, regardless of your angle.  I always try to take good angles and i'd say 80% of the time I do not take damage from bombers, but about 20% of the time he'll make a good shot as I am getting close.

I can see that some guns would be more difficult than the .50's I use.

I've run into some very good buff gunners, that could sometimes land damage even on a good pass, but I'm not sure I'm sold on the "regardless of angle" idea.  I certainly don't get hit on the majority of my passes, even against some of the best gunners I've bumped into.

[mtnman]

I do manange to dive in from good angles at high enough speed to make some close range passes without getting shot, but I miss my shots. I eventually make about 6 or 7 passes...

Which is why I stress the importance of YOUR OWN hit%.  You haven't really perfected bomber attacking (and shooting) if you need more than three (occasionally 4) quick passes to kill a formation.  Those extra passes are getting you killed...

Minimize the time you're vulnerable by maximizing your hits, and by hitting the right parts of the bomber.

[mtnman]

I'm stating that buffs are not easy pickings, and making a case for the data confirming that.  A single fighter attacking a bomber flown by a good gunner, is more than likely going to die before he gets to pad his hit percentage much.  

So what is your full proof approach to padding your hit percentage against a formation of 18K B-17s?

I don't see the date confirming that they're not easy pickings?  The data you've provided shows that they have a low K/D, but not that they're difficult targets.

It's more likely that they aren't often attacked by someone using good tactics, or with someone that can aim, so their K/D could be argued to be artificially high...

I don't want to turn this into a "how to kill bombers thread", but I'll show you a basic tactic that works the majority of the time.  In this case, I was actually pretty sloppy with my attack, and was too far behind the bombers while shooting.  That could have gotten me killed...  I normally try to stay slightly more forward.

This attack takes more time to set up if the bombers are higher, but is still effective on 18-20K buffs.  More time-consuming, but no less effective.

I'd have to dig for other film if you want it, but I'd recommend doing a search.  The topic has come up before.

B24's_0001.ahf

I don't think the film shows it (not on my end anyway) but these bombers were each set afire with one pass.  While I'm setting up in position for the next pass each time, I'm also waiting for the burning bomber to die so there are fewer guns to worry about...

[grizz441]

I can see that some guns would be more difficult than the .50's I use.

I've run into some very good buff gunners, that could sometimes land damage even on a good pass, but I'm not sure I'm sold on the "regardless of angle" idea.  I certainly don't get hit on the majority of my passes, even against some of the best gunners I've bumped into.

What distance do you normally cross/break off at?  I am usually around 100-150yds. If the gunner can get himself in the correct gun slot before my slash my plane is pretty large regardless of my angle.  Lots of oil and radiator leaks.