Author Topic: Talk to me about 109s  (Read 2308 times)

Offline Krusty

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2011, 09:25:57 AM »
The F4/G2 need more time on target, so to speak, to get the desired results.

I would add for others reading: That's okay, though, because these are some of the more manuverable 109 variants, and they can easily maintain position on a target long enough to get the desired results.

 :aok

Offline Debrody

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2011, 09:36:53 AM »
Oh come on Krusty.
True, the g14 turns a a bit better. And? Both can get a 38/pony/jak/lala(lala is tough... depends mostly on the pilot), and neither of them can outturn a spit/ki/niki.
  Its all about the style. For example, i feel more comfortable in a k-4 vs k-4 duel, with that heavy nose and massive torque i "think" i can control my reversal/tailslide/hammerhead better. Since in my style the ultra.low speed handling play a major role, i dont mind that 5-7% loss in the turn rate as much. Other people like to fight otherwise, so dont get deep conclusions about it. The k4 is the fastest, best climbing prop aircraft between 8 and 25k.
  Uptown, i can say one thing: try them all, you will find which one fits the best for your style.
E-4: only for german dudes in leather. Rolls horribly, with medicore turn rate, very slow, poor climbrate, decent firepower but the worst balistics in game.
F-4: a spitfire-trap. Can do 333 on the deck, can climb fairly well, not awsome in sustained turn but can fly slow and turn in a small radius. Can outscissor any spitfire but the mk5. Handles fairly neutral in every situation.
G-2: a pimped up F-4. Climbs very good, does 343 on the deck and 405 at 21k, but loses a bit from the turn rate/radius. Also not as neutral as the F. I never take gondolas, DTs or the bomb. There are better aircrafts for that.
G-6: has 3 thing on the g2: some stability (only the experts will notice), better rear view (also worse over the nose) and a bit better firepower. In the other hand 5mph slower and climbs 200feet/min less than the G-2.
G-14: G-6 on steroids. 355 on the deck (only 311 without wep tho), climbs like crazy, but just like a G-6 above 18k. The loss in the turn rate isnt worse than the G-6s. They handle the same except the torque. Has the tater.
K-4: a rocket. Best climb rate in game, faster than anything else (365 otd), see the characteristics above. Ideal for drag someone away from the horde and finish him, but can hold its own in a many vs many too.

Generally speaking, 109s are light fighters, even the smallest extra weight you put on them will ruin their balance and performance. Bombs, DTs, rockets, gondolas all turn it into a pig. The DT/bomb rack costs you 7mph speed even after you dropped the ords. Even tho the load of ord options can be temptating, i only use the gondies, and only on dedicated bomber huting missions. But the single 30mm gun can get the job done too.

The F may be very good in 1v1 but epicly fails in the many vs many. You need 2-3 passes to finish your opponent what makes you very vulnerable to the pickers. That isnt any better in the g2/6 tho. Gondolas make you very slow and kill your turn/climb rate. The real improvement is the 30mm cannon, but it needs time to get used to. Also it works very well vs light GVs (lvt, m3/8/18, even the panzer4f can be smoked).

There isnt any "jolly joker" amongst the 109s, like the spit16, all of them have advantages and disadvantages.
Now its all on you. Good luck, have fun flying theese little killers <S>
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:38:35 AM by Debrody »
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Offline IrishOne

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2011, 09:41:24 AM »
and she is THE bench-mark for climbrate out of the Axis prop-fighters. Only the spitfire Mk 14 can outclimb it, and just barely at that.

The K-4 isn't really the benchmark. It has a nice sustained climb, but in a combat situation you're not sitting on autopilot. You have zooms, you hang nose-high below best climb speed, etc. The 109K4 isn't nearly as much a UFO as half a dozen other planes in the game, several of them having "Spit" in their name.

 :rolleyes: :lol

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Offline ACE

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »
I like the 109K4.  
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2011, 09:45:24 AM »
The pair of 8mm MG's are hardly worth mentioning, but they are there to use with plenty of ammo to spare.


Thoughts of a MA Spitfire XVI pilot being attacked by a 109F-4 with no cannon left...  :airplane:

"WTF... how can a 109 turn with me??!?!?!?!  :furious"  ...tiktoktiktaktak... "I'm hit - phew, he only has BB's left  :D" ...tiktoktiktaktak... "He's still following me, what kinda crap is this?  :furious" *...tiktoktiktaktak *bang*...* "Uh oh, there my left gear  :uhoh" ...tiktoktiktaktak *bang*... "MY LEFT FLAP! HELP ME!  :pray" tiktoktiktaktak *crack* "Dude, where's my wing?  :cry"



Sorry, me being silly again. Meds are kicking in...   :x
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2011, 09:50:00 AM »

The F may be very good in 1v1 but epicly fails in the many vs many. You need 2-3 passes to finish your opponent what makes you very vulnerable to the pickers.


Like some other planes that are somewhat "second rate" in the context of the usual MA engagements, I found the F4 very effective and fun to fly in base defense vs CV attacks. :old:
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Offline Debrody

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2011, 09:57:23 AM »

Like some other planes that are somewhat "second rate" in the context of the usual MA engagements, I found the F4 very effective and fun to fly in base defense vs CV attacks. :old:
ok imagine a 109F vs spit16 duel... chances are very close arent they... almost the same speed, almost the same handling, almost the same turn, almost the same climbing... ok the spitty has a bit more chance.
now imagine 10 109Fs vs 10 spit16s. Spitfires clearly win. Why? Better guns (one snapshot can be fatal with a much better chance), better visibility (i dont need to explain), better roll rate (easyer to set up a snapshot).
Never said the F cant be fun. But in a CV attack turn rate has a much bigger role. They cant escape/dive away/play "chickens pick n run" as much. Also the F isnt that fast, but accelerates very well.
Got my point?  : )
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2011, 10:12:29 AM »
ok imagine a 109F vs spit16 duel... chances are very close arent they... almost the same speed, almost the same handling, almost the same turn, almost the same climbing... ok the spitty has a bit more chance.
now imagine 10 109Fs vs 10 spit16s. Spitfires clearly win. Why? Better guns (one snapshot can be fatal with a much better chance), better visibility (i dont need to explain), better roll rate (easyer to set up a snapshot).
Never said the F cant be fun. But in a CV attack turn rate has a much bigger role. They cant escape/dive away/play "chickens pick n run" as much. Also the F isnt that fast, but accelerates very well.
Got my point?  : )

Did I say anything  contrary?  :headscratch:
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Offline R 105

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2011, 10:48:34 AM »
 I like the 109F-4 and G-2 the best of all the 109s to fly. In early war a skilled 109F-4 pilot rules even with the weak gun package.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2011, 12:19:40 PM »
I would like to comment on the note that the G-14 is just like the G-6 above 18K. That's not entirely true. While the MW50 best altitude is aroudn 18k, the FTH on the G-6 is 20k. The benefits from the MW50 slowly taper off and it continues being faster than the G-6 all the way up to 20K. Even then it's still a little faster. It still out-climbs the G-6 above FTH, as well. Not by too much, but by a noticable amount.


According to DokGonzo's page the G-6 and G-14 are identical on milpower. According to HTC's graphs, the G-14 is better on milpow. Now, I'm not sure which to trust, as HTC's charts are sometimes useless depending on which arbitrary weight they choose to put on the plane in the chart (it's not always logical, see Fw190F8, see Seafire/spit5)

Gonzo's link: comparing G6 with G14:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g6&p2=109g14






Not that I'm totally disagreeing, just adding to the topic.

Offline uptown

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2011, 02:13:59 PM »
Wow, there's alot of information here so far. I have to say, you guys have peaked my interest in the 109F especially after going a few with Agent360s 109F in the DA this morning..It was quite a surprising little plane to say the least. Definitely a sleeper just begging for a turn fight  :joystick: Really looking forward to see what it can do against some of the Spits and KIs down low and real slow.  :t
Lighten up Francis

Offline Krusty

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2011, 02:20:06 PM »
Shhh! Don't let the secret out!  :noid

Offline coombz

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2011, 02:28:47 PM »
you guys have peaked my interest in the 109F

 :bhead

    :old:
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I'll be seeing you face to face possibly next month.

Offline uptown

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2011, 02:31:12 PM »
stupid double posts  :bhead
Lighten up Francis

Offline Widewing

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2011, 02:48:38 PM »
Shhh! Don't let the secret out!  :noid

It's no secret Krusty, some of us have been stall-fighting in the F model since the big flight model update when AH2 went live. I've dueled excellent Spit V pilots with the F and won as often as not. It will give the Spit16 fits, and is a dead even match for the N1K2-J in a low speed scrum. The only secret relates to how to fly the 109s on the edge of a stall in the vertical, and it's a very poorly kept secret at that. Only a handful or fighters can out-turn the 109F (flaps out), but the F is often superior in the vertical, and can grab an insurmountable advantage against the F4Us (except perhaps, the -4) by fighting up-hill.

The G-2 is heavier, and doesn't turn as well. Still it is very capable. A well flown G-2 can handle an La-7, regardless of who is flying it. This forces the La-7 to use its speed to get some separation or die trying to maneuver with it. Where the 109s fall short is their tendency to have controls stiffen up at very high speeds. This, however, can be adjusted for.

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.