Author Topic: 88mm flack gun  (Read 4085 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2011, 02:48:14 PM »
The German 88. Most feared multi-use weapon of WW2.

Did you know the Germans feared the multi-role US 90mm M2 AA gun as much as we feared the German 88mm? 


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2011, 03:28:11 PM »
I cannot imagine the line of reasoning that people have to say that this is going to stop bomber raids.  It isn't a magic gun.  Even if radar will now include altitude reporting, it will still be almost impossible to hit a bomber at altitude.  In fact, I welcome the thing because people trying to shoot me down makes it more interesting.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Tank-Ace

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5298
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2011, 04:21:22 PM »
Karnak, its just that (I think), they're fearing it WILL be a factor, and so they're trying to make it out to be bigger than it is.

True AKAK, but the 90mm wasn't as common as the 88 was, and it wasn't in use as early. As a result, it wasn't able to develop that legendary staus as some proverbial beast that stalks the battlefield.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2011, 04:34:23 PM »

True AKAK, but the 90mm wasn't as common as the 88 was, and it wasn't in use as early. As a result, it wasn't able to develop that legendary staus as some proverbial beast that stalks the battlefield.


The US 90mm M2 AA gun was just as common as the 88mm, and it had the same reputation amongst the Axis as the 88mm had with the Allies.  The Germans hated it so much because there was very little audible warning and would often catch the German troops by surprise and left scrambling for cover as the M2 would pour in rapid direct fire on the German positions.  Captured German POWs referred to the 90mm M2 as the "Ratschbum" due to the sounds of the incoming rounds on their positions.

Here is a M2 engaging attacking German troops and armor in Italy.


M2 position during the Battle of the Bulge.


One major thing the 90mm M2 had on the 88mm...the ability to fire proximity fused rounds when it was finally authorized to use the rounds over mainland Europe.

ack-ack
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 04:37:22 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline AHTbolt

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 582
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2011, 06:34:19 PM »
If you want a towed 88 this is the one you want Gerat 42.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 07:06:14 PM by AHTbolt »
AWWWWW CRAP YOU SHOT WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the desert somewhere west of Kuwait 1991.

Offline Tank-Ace

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5298
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2011, 06:55:08 PM »
Hmmm... I thought the M2 (the one able to engage ground targets) didn't see widespread use untill mid 1943.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Melvin

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2797
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2011, 07:13:09 PM »
I have too, but if the airfield would become dangerous, I would simply avoid it.

This is precisely my point.

I've done the milk-run thing (as a way to pass time while sipping beers) and my method was to fly from Point A to Point B to Point C, with little to no deviation.

If I have to worry about some 88's lighting me up on my approach, I too will avoid the airfield. However, if I have to do too much maneuvering, I'll simply avoid the target completely or scrub the mission altogether.

I will then go sit in a gun position and practice shooting down high alt buffs while enjoying a cold brewskie or two.

 :cheers:

 :salute
See Rule #4

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2011, 08:07:38 PM »
Hmmm... I thought the M2 (the one able to engage ground targets) didn't see widespread use untill mid 1943.

When were the US in italy?
JG 52

Offline STXAce8

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 724
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2011, 08:32:14 PM »
Maybe we can get it towed by a sdkfz.  :)
ZLA- Don't Focke Wulf Us!
Ingame: Batz
Kommando Nowotny
Its over the top as Fack

Offline Tank-Ace

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5298
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2011, 01:16:19 AM »
When were the US in italy?

USA also played a large role in North Afrika, where Rommel's use of the gun contributed in large part to its reputation with the Allies.

When/where exactly it earned its fearsome reputation is harder to pinpoint, but North Afrika is undoubtably the front in which the Allies faced significant numbers of these guns defending from pre-prepared positions (which probably helped create the reputation it had, since they were less exposed than the attacking British tanks).
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline ozrocker

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3640
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2011, 07:23:47 AM »
Did you know the Germans feared the multi-role US 90mm M2 AA gun as much as we feared the German 88mm?  


ack-ack
Did not know that. Thanks.

                                                                                                                       :cheers: Oz
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 07:25:38 AM by ozrocker »
Flying and dying since Tour 29
The world is grown so bad. That wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.- Shakespeare
 
30% Disabled Vet  US ARMY- 11C2H 2/32 AR. 3rd AD, 3/67AR. 2nd AD, 2/64 AR. 3rd ID, ABGD Command TRADOC, 1/16th INF. 1st ID

Offline SmokinLoon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6166
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2011, 07:55:04 AM »
I think the only thing the 88mm is going to do is make the low level bomber blokes think twice.  If anything, it is simply going to push the bombers a wee bit higher and perhaps stave off the dive bombers a bit, too.  I dont know about anyone else but I find that it is much easier to shoot down enemy aircraft with the 5in naval guns proxy fuse vs the 40mm manned ack. 

The thing we do not know is how HTC is going to work the fuse settings on the 88mm.  If they make us dial it in prior to firing, that wont be so bad really.  It will be similar to dialing in a German tank to the range you want, and once you have the range dialed in it is just a matter of fine adjustment.
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Bino

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5937
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2011, 08:34:58 AM »
Did the 88's have proxy fuses, or were they strictly altitude "set" fuses.  Anyone???


from http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq96-1.htm

+++++

"...
British scientists were working on proximity fuze devices for rockets and bombs at least as early as 1939.
Captured documents indicate that German work on proximity fuze development had begun in the early 1930's,
and was still in process when hostilities ended in the European Theatre.

In brief, there is nothing unique about the 'idea' of a proximity fuze. The possibility that proximity fuzes
of various types might be feasible has been recognized for a long time. The American achievement,
accomplished by no other country, was the actual development of a proximity fuze that would function
and that could be manufactured by mass-production techniques.
..."

The "VT" or Radio Proximity Fuze: Supplemental Basic Information Prepared by Applied Physics Laboratory,
the Johns Hopkins University. (Silver Springs MD: The Laboratory, 1945)

+++++

"...
test firing of proximity fuzed 5"/38 projectiles against drones was carried out in August 1942
aboard the cruiser USS Cleveland [CL-55]. Results of this test were entirely satisfactory and
accordingly, full-scale production of proximity fuzes was initiated at the Crosley Corporation
in September 1942. Early production was plagued with numerous difficulties but satisfactory
material was finally produced. This fuze, which was designated the Mk 32, was delivered to
the Fleet during November and December 1942, and the first Japanese plane was shot down
with proximity fuzed projectiles by the cruiser USS Helena [CL-50] in January 1943.
..."

Dilley, N. E.
"Development of Proximity Fuzes (VT) for Projectiles - VT Fuzes MKS 32 to 60, Inclusive (General Description)."
chapter 1 of
The World War II Proximity Fuze: A Compilation of Naval Ordnance Reports by
the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory. (Silver Spring MD: The Laboratory, 1950)





« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:32:29 AM by Bino »


"The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." - Randy Pausch

PC Specs

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23872
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2011, 08:48:39 AM »
The thing we do not know is how HTC is going to work the fuse settings on the 88mm.  If they make us dial it in prior to firing, that wont be so bad really

What I could imagine... and note that I have absolutely no idea what HTC is really doing... well, what I could imagine as an easy "solution":

With the new icon system, give the 88 - and only this one - unlimited icon range. You can see the enemy planes, you get an icon ("12K"). And the fuse is set by time (perhaps mappable to any analog control axis). This would on one hand simulate radar or optical rangefinder data data, whole on the other hand it would still not be anywhere like "magic" hit probability. At long ranges you still don't have the exact range, and neither do you know the exact composition of vertical and horizontal distance vectors which has some influence on flight time. A very talented gunner with lots of practice may finally be able to pull of some amazing shots, the majority will not. (I can already see the "cheat!" whines coming :D)

But this way the gunner would have at least a chance to engage high flying targets, while not having to fall back on something like radar fused rounds. And, at least for me, that would add another new, interesting thing to learn  :joystick:
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 08:53:30 AM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline RTHolmes

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8260
Re: 88mm flack gun
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2011, 08:52:21 AM »
iirc VT fuses were yet another developement based on the secret tech in Tizard's suitcase.
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli