Chevy finally stepping up to the plate

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Even with all the money they've spent, they can only buy the rules in NHRA. They've won maybe a couple of national events. They hold a few records, and they've managed to win class eliminations when faced with 40 year old cars with honest factors. But they can't consistently win events, and can't come close to a championship in any class. Well, except Funny Car, with aftermarket Chrysler Hemi power. They've struggled so long and fared so poorly they've pulled support for Pro Stock, again.

They did succeed in buying themselves some new classes in Stock and Super Stock, to allow their paper race cars with bogus factors to continue to compete.

There are some really good people racing the Cobra Jets, genuinely nice people. But the cars and their factors are so bogus that no one really gives them any credence.

In the end, they've done little or nothing for Ford sales. They don't have any championships. They've managed to screw up the rules for what was once a great class, just to get their bogus cars in. They've contributed to a shrinking car count at the races. They've even convinced people who have been hard working racers with legitimate combinations to park their cars and quit, or worse, sell their race cars.


The "factory race cars" are sort of cool. What they've done to the sport just plain sucks. They've ruined one of the last real honest classes where hard work was what made people fast and won races. Had they been truly interested in furthering the sport, as opposed to buying "performance", they'd have asked for their own classes, where they could show case their performance, and had a factory war. Instead, they actually have a factory war once a year, at the U.S. Nationals, the rest of the time, they're just wandering about. Now they've created serious safety issues to add to the other problems we already faced as class racers.

It is a shame what Ford, followed by Chrysler, and finally GM, have done to a once great sport. They had a great opportunity to do the right thing, helping themselves and the sport. Instead, they screwed the vast majority of racers and in the process, allowing their greedy desires to buy wins at any cost to do devastating damage to the sport. Those of us who remain cling to the hope that the sport survives the stupidity.

[Shuffler]

how about now?

2012 Camaro V6 is 323hp.

[Reaper90]

chevy audi and bmw are small?

manufacturers =/ teams

[Skuzzy]

Virgil, you cannot lay all of that on Ford.  GM has pulled its far share of shenanigans as well.

To say has never won much of anything is just wrong.  When Ford was in Indy, GM did not even bother trying to compete.  When Ford pulled out, and sold it all to Cosworth, Cosworth continued winning.  Then GM finally stepped in.  Even then they lost two years in a row to renegade Ford teams who had no factory support.  Of course, Honda and Toyota own Indy now.  It will be a while before any of them have the record Offenhauser had at Indy.

Truth is Ford has always been better at building road racing engines than at the quarter mile.

[jeep00]

Virgil, you cannot lay all of that on Ford.  GM has pulled its far share of shenanigans as well.

To say has never won much of anything is just wrong.  When Ford was in Indy, GM did not even bother trying to compete.  When Ford pulled out, and sold it all to Cosworth, Cosworth continued winning.  Then GM finally stepped in.  Even then they lost two years in a row to renegade Ford teams who had no factory support.  Of course, Honda and Toyota own Indy now.  It will be a while before any of them have the record Offenhauser had at Indy.

Truth is Ford has always been better at building road racing engines than at the quarter mile.

They DID do fairly well in 1994 winning half the races on the F1 shedule that year,and indeed they did well in the ! championship in general with Benetton. I think it was the Cosworth V8, but it was impressive what they were doing when everyone else had stepped to V10 and V12 power.

Bob

[CAP1]

2012 Camaro V6 is 323hp.

 was that a real hp increase, or more numbers juggling like the 300 to 312 increase was?

[CAP1]

Even with all the money they've spent, they can only buy the rules in NHRA. They've won maybe a couple of national events. They hold a few records, and they've managed to win class eliminations when faced with 40 year old cars with honest factors. But they can't consistently win events, and can't come close to a championship in any class. Well, except Funny Car, with aftermarket Chrysler Hemi power. They've struggled so long and fared so poorly they've pulled support for Pro Stock, again.

They did succeed in buying themselves some new classes in Stock and Super Stock, to allow their paper race cars with bogus factors to continue to compete.

There are some really good people racing the Cobra Jets, genuinely nice people. But the cars and their factors are so bogus that no one really gives them any credence.

In the end, they've done little or nothing for Ford sales. They don't have any championships. They've managed to screw up the rules for what was once a great class, just to get their bogus cars in. They've contributed to a shrinking car count at the races. They've even convinced people who have been hard working racers with legitimate combinations to park their cars and quit, or worse, sell their race cars.


The "factory race cars" are sort of cool. What they've done to the sport just plain sucks. They've ruined one of the last real honest classes where hard work was what made people fast and won races. Had they been truly interested in furthering the sport, as opposed to buying "performance", they'd have asked for their own classes, where they could show case their performance, and had a factory war. Instead, they actually have a factory war once a year, at the U.S. Nationals, the rest of the time, they're just wandering about. Now they've created serious safety issues to add to the other problems we already faced as class racers.

It is a shame what Ford, followed by Chrysler, and finally GM, have done to a once great sport. They had a great opportunity to do the right thing, helping themselves and the sport. Instead, they screwed the vast majority of racers and in the process, allowing their greedy desires to buy wins at any cost to do devastating damage to the sport. Those of us who remain cling to the hope that the sport survives the stupidity.

 see? i never got past bracket racing. mostly due to  money. even in bracket racing, the systems on the cars are so effed up that in order to compete, you have to run the stuff you hate. like trans brakes and delay boxes.

 as for them ruining the class.......nhra has to take at least half of the blame, as they didn't have to allow it. they could have said it's either "X" or you can go away.

 

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Virgil, you cannot lay all of that on Ford.  GM has pulled its far share of shenanigans as well.

To say has never won much of anything is just wrong.  When Ford was in Indy, GM did not even bother trying to compete.  When Ford pulled out, and sold it all to Cosworth, Cosworth continued winning.  Then GM finally stepped in.  Even then they lost two years in a row to renegade Ford teams who had no factory support.  Of course, Honda and Toyota own Indy now.  It will be a while before any of them have the record Offenhauser had at Indy.

Truth is Ford has always been better at building road racing engines than at the quarter mile.

Skuzzy, I can lay the current state of affairs in Stock and Super Stock directly at the feet of Ford. Since they began buying the rule book for both classes in 2008, when they became "the official vehicle of NHRA", the amount of damage done has been incredible. Their paid for change to the basic foundation of Stock Eliminator has altered the basic premise of the class completely. Stock Eliminator was based on the primary rule that above all else, any car that ran in Stock Eliminator must be a production car, street legal, sold in quantity to the general public, certified for use to the industry standards for safety and emissions. That rule was specifically written to prevent purpose built cars from being entered in the class. The entire idea was that anyone who wanted to could go down and buy a car just like they saw compete, and they could drive it home, with legal license plates and insurance. Special high dollar purpose built race cars were specifically excluded from the class, intentionally, as part of the main reason for the class.

What Ford did to the class has driven many long time competitors out of the class, it has shrunk the car count, and discouraged potential racers from getting in.

I can also say that through the years, Ford has lagged far enough behind Chevrolet in sportsman drag racing, and even with their new bought rule book, the best they can do is go fast in certain classes, and win very few races. Honestly, the same applies to sportsman stock car racing, or circle track racing, whichever you prefer. I've never seen a race track with entry level classes that specifically and strictly forbid Ford cars from competing. I have seen nearly a dozen such tracks and classes with rules that forbid Chevrolet cars from competing.

GM, for the most part, never saw much purpose in "Indy car" racing, and rightly so. The amount of return on the investment was and remains paltry. GM learned that lesson when they associated themselves with Roger Penske. They spent millions, and won races. But they never got the sales they got from just providing pace cars. The fact that Penske stuck the screws to them did not help.

GM has been the car to beat in NASCAR for most of the last 40 years, though during certain periods Ford and later Toyota did exhibit some real competition.

Honestly, in drag racing and stock car racing, Chevrolet has been the dominant force more often than not for the longest period of time in modern history. Both at the professional level and the sportsman level, Chevrolet, and not Ford, has won more races and more championships. Ford has had some great moments, and some great competitors. But Chevrolet has been in the winners circle and on the championship stage a lot more often.

[CAP1]

Virgil, you cannot lay all of that on Ford.  GM has pulled its far share of shenanigans as well.

To say has never won much of anything is just wrong.  When Ford was in Indy, GM did not even bother trying to compete.  When Ford pulled out, and sold it all to Cosworth, Cosworth continued winning.  Then GM finally stepped in.  Even then they lost two years in a row to renegade Ford teams who had no factory support.  Of course, Honda and Toyota own Indy now.  It will be a while before any of them have the record Offenhauser had at Indy.

Truth is Ford has always been better at building road racing engines than at the quarter mile.

 i'll be doing some performance driving courses soon, and lapping my gt on both the thunderbolt and the lightning race courses down at milleville. she'll see the drag strip at least enough for me to see my mid 12's that i'm fairly confident she'll do in bone stock condition. then once i get the rust off, i figure low 12's.  

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

see? i never got past bracket racing. mostly due to  money. even in bracket racing, the systems on the cars are so effed up that in order to compete, you have to run the stuff you hate. like trans brakes and delay boxes.

 as for them ruining the class.......nhra has to take at least half of the blame, as they didn't have to allow it. they could have said it's either "X" or you can go away.

 

The ubiquitous big block Chevrolet, and the PowerGlide transmission for the most part dominate bracket racing. Add in those small block Chevy powered cars, and it's an even wider spread.

NHRA is absolutely at fault, their greed is no lesser a factor than Ford. They wanted the money Ford had, so they took it. They're absolutely willing co-conspirators.

We were actually on the list for the original Camaro Stock Eliminator program when it was first created to accompany the return of the Camaro. But it was NEVER anything like what you see now. We had asked for 3 engine packages that were to be production packages, what you'd see on the showroom floor. The idea was to have an affordable line of cars that did not have absurd options and prices. We had asked for 5.0, 5.7, and 7.0 liter engine packages, similar to the original Camaro line, in cars with very limited options and low curb weights. Real COPO cars, if you will. We wanted rubber floor mats, regular 16" wheels, manual windows, door locks, and seats, basic radios, and other cost/weight saving options. The idea was that we'd have cars that were affordable, and were good to race. Then of course the economic collapse came and ended the program.

As far as it goes, I'm not happy with GM over the new Camaro, but I can see where they felt it was necessary. It's just another car that real Stock Eliminator cars should not have to race.

We went to NHRA in 2008, and asked them to recreate the FX (Factory Experimental) classes as a stand alone class for the new "factory race cars". Complete with their own sub classes, indexes, HP factors, and safety rules. The idea was that Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler could have their cars racing each other on a weekly basis at every race, showcasing the factory efforts, without sticking the screws to the rest of the classes. Ford demanded they be allowed the dominant position in Stock and Super Stock. That was the end of that.

[CAP1]

i would think chevys dominance in nascar started in.....what was it? late 50's early 60's? when they announced that they were pulling all sponsorship of racing? and the knuckleheads at ford jumped the gun, pullnig theirs? then chevy kept on going. that's how i believe holman-moody got their start. before that olds was the dominant gm, and even those were losing to studebakers, and hudsons.

 drag racing, the best i can relate is my personal experiences, which i have. i shuold also add that when we were running the camaro, there was a certain mercury capri(drivin by a pretty cool dood) that for the life of me, i couldn't tune that 454 to beat. the guy was running a 460, with similar specifications to our camaro....and was nearly a half second faster.

 indy car stuff.....good place to develop engine tech.

 you left out road racing, where in the case of bmw and ford, you can call your dealer and order a race ready car. the camaros competing in those series do not leave chevy as race cars. that class is supposed to be production cars. i guess chevy must've bought the rule book in that series, eh? and they're still losing to smaller powerplants(both the beemers and fords run air intake restrictors, the chevy doesn't).

 
 all in all, i'd like to be able to sit at dinner with some of you guys talking about this........virg masher, and skuzzy especially. would be some VERY interesting and enjoyable conversations i think.

[olds442]

GM has gone 'down unda' for most of it's performance cars, corvette being the biggest exception. Camaro, CTS and the GTO were all based on Aussie platforms.

supporting evedence?
and the corvett is ZR1 is the 4th fastest production car in the world

[CAP1]

supporting evedence?
and the corvett is ZR1 is the 4th fastest production car in the world

Following the development of the Zeta architecture and because of its position as the GM global center of RWD development, GM Holden in Australia led the final design, engineering, and development of the Camaro.[24] However, the new Camaro will be produced at the Oshawa Car Assembly manufacturing plant in Canada.[25] 2,750 jobs would have been lost at the Oshawa manufacturing plant which had been originally scheduled to be closed in 2008; some of these jobs were saved due to the new Camaro's production.[26] This new product program and conversion of the Oshawa plant to a state of the art flexible manufacturing facility represented a US$740,000,000 investment.[27]


http://www.camarohomepage.com/holden/default.htm

[ink]

all this ford-chevy talk is giving me a headache




MOPAR OR NOCAR












<----Toughest car I ever owned/sat in.



























ahhhhh headache gone

[SilverZ06]

a base corvette owner will find himself somewhat embarrassed against a gt. in the twisties, or the straights.

You are off your rocker. Put down the kool-aid you've had far too much.