Author Topic: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials  (Read 2854 times)

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 03:54:33 PM »
LOL!!!

That's rich... It can break Mach1 from what I've read if it has nothing on it, no missiles, no weapons, no fuel tank, no underwing pylons (they add massive drag, being toed outwards), but it requires 4-stage afterburner to do so and that gives it a flight time of somewhere like 5 minutes before it has to land.


Whereas the F-35 can fly its entire mission carrying guns and bombs to target and back while supercruising past Mach1 and not in afterburner mode.
laugh all you want but do you have any references?
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 04:25:10 PM »
The f-35 is to the U.N. and its allies what the tie fighters is to the empire.


Mass produced cheap and worthless.  :rock
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 04:32:24 PM »
laugh all you want but do you have any references?

Any resource out there will tell you the Hornet and SuperHornet are subsonic aircraft when flown in actual missions. They are not speed demons unless stripped down to the bare bones with nothing onboard, and then the lack of any internal fuel means they can only do it for extremely short periods of time. Putting a couple underwing tanks on to increase that fuel load adds so much drag they effectively cannot sustain Mach1 speeds and become (for all intents and purposes) grounded in the low speed regime. Add missiles, bombs, targetting pods, more gas tanks, and it gets slower and slower.

Instead of just looking up a hypothetical top speed, check out a number of discussion boards that often have actual Navy or ex-Navy pilots chiming in from time to time.

To sum it up bluntly... The Hornets and SHornets are bomb trucks. It's just the current age of the bomb truck with the Navy. They can carry missiles and fire them, but for all intents and purposes who are they going to fight? They were designed as light weight multirole attack craft. They are outclassed by most foreign designs in all but radar.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 05:29:48 PM »
Any resource out there will tell you the Hornet and SuperHornet are subsonic aircraft when flown in actual missions. They are not speed demons unless stripped down to the bare bones with nothing onboard, and then the lack of any internal fuel means they can only do it for extremely short periods of time. Putting a couple underwing tanks on to increase that fuel load adds so much drag they effectively cannot sustain Mach1 speeds and become (for all intents and purposes) grounded in the low speed regime. Add missiles, bombs, targetting pods, more gas tanks, and it gets slower and slower.

Instead of just looking up a hypothetical top speed, check out a number of discussion boards that often have actual Navy or ex-Navy pilots chiming in from time to time.

To sum it up bluntly... The Hornets and SHornets are bomb trucks. It's just the current age of the bomb truck with the Navy. They can carry missiles and fire them, but for all intents and purposes who are they going to fight? They were designed as light weight multirole attack craft. They are outclassed by most foreign designs in all but radar.

You have still failed to provide any references, lay of the  BBS posturing, and provide it... Post some links to these discussion boards, I bet many players in the community would be interested in checking it out.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 05:31:57 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 08:01:14 PM »
The biggest problem with the F-35 is that its basically going to replace all Naval fixed wing tactical aircraft, and it only has one engine.

Guess what the two leading class-A mishap aircraft are in the U.S. military?  And what common characteristic do they share?  I'll tell you that the Marine Corps needs a replacement for the Harrier--the capability to have fixed-wing on an amphibious assault ship is huge for Marine expeditionary forces--I've seen the difference first hand.  I just don't know that we can afford this thing, but it looks like we're going to try...
I believe the quote from the Pratt and Whitney rep when asked "what happens when the engine fails" was "it won't."  This, from the company that brought us the mighty TF-30 roman candle.  Operating from a CV thousands of miles from shore? Give me two GE's any day.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 08:26:11 PM »
LOL!!!

That's rich... It can break Mach1 from what I've read if it has nothing on it, no missiles, no weapons, no fuel tank, no underwing pylons (they add massive drag, being toed outwards), but it requires 4-stage afterburner to do so and that gives it a flight time of somewhere like 5 minutes before it has to land.


Whereas the F-35 can fly its entire mission carrying guns and bombs to target and back while supercruising past Mach1 and not in afterburner mode.
Well....I agree the services need the F-35 and I am no fan of the Hornet but you're going over the top here.  The Hornet is not the fastest fighter out there but it's supersonic at altitude with stores but not on the deck but then even the F-14 was limited to 650KIAS below 12k ft with stores and, on the deck, 650KIAS is subsonic.  As for fuel, you're quoting on the deck fuel consumption.  The F-14 could burn up 20k lbs of fuel (it's entire internal and external load) in eight minutes on the deck in full AB but had plenty of fuel for extended AB use in combat, supersonic dashes at altitude, or a max performance climb to altitude.  The Hornet has less fuel and more drag, that's true, but it's not subsonic except at low altitude.  Also, don't forget that while the pylons can't be jettisoned the external tanks and bombs can which makes a tremendous difference in the Hornet's performance.  If he gets in an engagement the Hornet pilot can hit the jettison button and make most of the junk go away.

As for the F35, it cannot "fly its entire mission...while supercruising past Mach 1."  I've never seen anywhere that the F-35 is spec'd for supercruise but even if it is you can't get away from physics.  Supercruise still requires lots more gas than subsonic cruise even because the engine still needs to produce AB-like levels of power and that means gas, lots and lots of gas.  Not using AB makes it more efficient but it still eats up gas.  Yes, the F-22 can sustain supersonic speeds at MRT but even it doesn't fly its entire mission supersonic because its fuel consumption would cut its range in half.  Again, I've got no love lost on the Hornet, I think it was a massive mistake for the Navy but it is what it is and it's not bad.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 08:31:45 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline beau32

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 12:22:42 AM »
The F-35 is not designed for supercruise. The main mission will be to penetrate enemy defences at subsonic speeds using stealth to take out targets.

Here is a good video to get a good idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y44lftPGWvM

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Offline Stoney

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 02:34:29 AM »
Krusty, the problem is that the 3 separate services require 3 very distinct types of capability, with the air superiority role of the Navy and Marine Corps overlapping.  That being said, a jack-of-all trades aircraft is going to have compromises built in to fit all 3 services, meaning its not ideal for anyone.

The Harrier is perfectly capable at its designed mission.  The beauty of the aircraft is that it doesn't need long legs, since it can take off very close to the action.  As an CAS platform, it has no 1-target equal.  I've seen every aircraft in the inventory perform CAS missions, and the Harrier is the most capable on and off the target, bar none.  They're hard to see, very maneuverable in that regime, and flown by the best pilots in the Marine Corps who have an appreciation for the ground fight.  That being said, yes, it needs a replacement. 

The F-18 isn't sexy, but it gets the job done.  D's and F's bring a lot of capability that the single-seaters don't have.  D models in the Marine Corps can perform just about every mission imaginable, but really begin to shine in the TAC(A) / FAC(A) role.  The F-35 won't be able to perform these missions with anywhere near the ability of the two-seat Hornets.

And again, the F-35 is a single-engine jet.  That's a huge liability, but it was designed that way to reduce cost.  What that means is that whenever there's an engine failure, the aircraft is a goner.  Referring back to my earlier post, the F-16 and AV8B are the two highest class-A mishap aircraft in the U.S. inventory, and they're the only two single-engine aircraft. 

I don't really have an answer for the problem, I just know that the F-35 is going to be lackluster, compared to its cost and development.  Given the nature of air warfare these days, I think the F-18E/F was a very cost-effective way for the Navy to go. 
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 02:51:22 AM »
We need stornets.



Stealth super hornets.  :rock
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Offline MK-84

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2012, 03:18:02 AM »
Krusty, the problem is that the 3 separate services require 3 very distinct types of capability, with the air superiority role of the Navy and Marine Corps overlapping.  That being said, a jack-of-all trades aircraft is going to have compromises built in to fit all 3 services, meaning its not ideal for anyone.

The Harrier is perfectly capable at its designed mission.  The beauty of the aircraft is that it doesn't need long legs, since it can take off very close to the action.  As an CAS platform, it has no 1-target equal.  I've seen every aircraft in the inventory perform CAS missions, and the Harrier is the most capable on and off the target, bar none.  They're hard to see, very maneuverable in that regime, and flown by the best pilots in the Marine Corps who have an appreciation for the ground fight.  That being said, yes, it needs a replacement. 

The F-18 isn't sexy, but it gets the job done.  D's and F's bring a lot of capability that the single-seaters don't have.  D models in the Marine Corps can perform just about every mission imaginable, but really begin to shine in the TAC(A) / FAC(A) role.  The F-35 won't be able to perform these missions with anywhere near the ability of the two-seat Hornets.

And again, the F-35 is a single-engine jet.  That's a huge liability, but it was designed that way to reduce cost.  What that means is that whenever there's an engine failure, the aircraft is a goner.  Referring back to my earlier post, the F-16 and AV8B are the two highest class-A mishap aircraft in the U.S. inventory, and they're the only two single-engine aircraft. 

I don't really have an answer for the problem, I just know that the F-35 is going to be lackluster, compared to its cost and development.  Given the nature of air warfare these days, I think the F-18E/F was a very cost-effective way for the Navy to go. 


The only thing I really took to heart was that "the F-35 was designed to reduce cost"  You're entirely correct, of course, but um...

I would be most concerned myself about economies of scale, If there was a desperate need for this aircraft in quantities..

Back to WW2,  Didn't in some-part the Soviets help win the war by sheer production?  As did the United States?

As awesome as it is...it reminds me of Nazi Germany:  An army very wide, but not real deep.  (thats not the quote, but you get it)

Offline Krusty

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2012, 02:42:44 PM »
I think the past 60 years of engine development have proven that single engines are not as much a liability as first thought of in the '50s. There used to be regulations stating that no 2-engine airlines can be operated over water, as well. That was changed as the technology and the power of those engines continued to improve. Now the Boeing 777 can operate safely with 1 engine running, even!

The thing is the Navy doesn't need an Air Superiority fighter. It's not replacing an Air Superiority fighter. The Hornet and Super Hornet are NOT air superiority fighters. They're attack craft that can defend themselves when they go in to bomb ground targets. The Navy hasn't had Air Superiority fighters in a long long time.

That's not what it's replacing, and that's not what it should be.

Offline Stoney

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2012, 03:08:06 PM »
Now the Boeing 777 can operate safely with 1 engine running, even!

The thing is the Navy doesn't need an Air Superiority fighter. It's not replacing an Air Superiority fighter. The Hornet and Super Hornet are NOT air superiority fighters. They're attack craft that can defend themselves when they go in to bomb ground targets. The Navy hasn't had Air Superiority fighters in a long long time.

That's not what it's replacing, and that's not what it should be.


Note that currently, there are no single-engine airliners operating...anywhere.  Heck, the FAA doesn't even like the Caravan for people moving just because it has 1 engine.  You ask Hornet pilots how excited they are about transitioning from a two-engine aircraft to a single-engine aircraft?  For the Harrier pilots, its a wash, since ejection training is already their most important T&R syllabus item anyway.  Its not called the Carolina Lawn Dart for nothing.

The Navy most certainly has an air superiority mission.  Krusty, Naval aviation doctrine is one of air superiority, not air supremacy (Air Force).  The F-18 is used to fill that role.  May not be the most potent air-to-air platform out there, but its capable, and for the single-seat Hornet community, that's their main mission.  Dropping bombs is secondary.  Trust me, back in the day, Navy Hornet drivers were almost as big a liability as Bombcat drivers when performing CAS.  The community is much more savvy now, but air-to-air is still their primary mission, as it is even for single-seat Hornets in the Marine Corps.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2012, 10:16:50 PM »
I think the past 60 years of engine development have proven that single engines are not as much a liability as first thought of in the '50s. There used to be regulations stating that no 2-engine airlines can be operated over water, as well. That was changed as the technology and the power of those engines continued to improve. Now the Boeing 777 can operate safely with 1 engine running, even!

The thing is the Navy doesn't need an Air Superiority fighter. It's not replacing an Air Superiority fighter. The Hornet and Super Hornet are NOT air superiority fighters. They're attack craft that can defend themselves when they go in to bomb ground targets. The Navy hasn't had Air Superiority fighters in a long long time.

That's not what it's replacing, and that's not what it should be.

Engine development, greater thrust, greater efficiency, greater reliability are all great but thrust still = 0 when one engine goes out.  Also, someone actually believes Pratt & Whitney that it'll never fail?  Grumman advertised the F-14 as being "unspinnable."  It didn't work out that way and believing in P&W's "never" failing engine won't either.  Also, don't forget that an engine failure can occur for numerous reasons, not all of them internal to the engine that will "never" fail.  Those advocating for the single engine have probably never been by themselves, out of radio contact, 500 miles away from the CV and 2,000 miles away from land and gotten an oil-pressure light or rising EGT or busted bleed duct or nozzle failure or engine boost pump failure or any of the other myriad things that can go wrong with hi-tech machinery.  How about the possibility of a simple fastener that was stripped by the 18-year-old plane captain that works its way loose and down your intake?  Something that small can cause a small chip in a fan blade that causes two chips in the 1st stage compressor which leads eventually to a catastrophic engine failure as it eats itself up.  Who doesn't fly fighters in that environment?  The US Air Force.  Any guesses who struck out "twin" and penciled in "single" in the statement of work?  The single engine decision is probably the biggest single (no pun intended) real "cost" of a single airframe for three services.  Also, who the heck else is building a single-engined fourth or fifth generation fighter?  NOBODY...but us.  The Rafale, Typhoon, F-22, SU-27, SU-3x, MiG-29, are all twins as are both the Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20.  Off the top of my head I think the F-16, Mirage 2000, and J-10 are the only single engine aircraft that would be considered anyone's front line fighter and the only "new" one of those three is the J-10 (which is just a Chinese knockoff of the Israeli knockoff of the F-16).

As for the air superiority thing, well, you're just wrong Krusty.  In any realistic evaluation the primary mission for all the Hornets remains air-to-mud but it's not because of the airframe or because air superiority isn't a Naval Aviation mission, it is.  In my experience, some of the lack of emphasis comes from the historical development of the community.  The original Hornet drivers came from the A-7 community and thought that all they needed to proclaim themselves "fighter pilots" (besides going USAF where they think everything is a "fighter") was a pointy nose and twin tails but they still flew like attack pukes.  They were so cute...like kittens with all their snarling and little claws and constant sucking at the tanker tit.  The Tomcats, being the grown up cats, would just bat them away and they'd run off and go drop green turds on the ground somewhere. They were good at dropping stuff but sucked in the air even with all their brand new geewizz computers helping them fly their planes.   It's gotten better over the years primarily because of the Tomcat squadron transitions but most of their training $$$ still goes to air-to-ground.  That's driven by the real-world fact that we've been fighting since 1990 against enemies with little to no air-to-air capability but there are plenty of countries that do and that number is growing so air superiority will continue to be a requirement.

Now, philosophy and doctrine aside, is the Hornet/Super Hornet an "air superiority fighter" or not?  Of course it is.  Download the bomb crap and upload AMRAAMs and AIM-9X and all variants can take on anything currently out there.  In particular, the Super Hornet with AESA radar is pretty amazing.  It can't turn quite as well as some fighters but what people don't understand is that in an air-to-air missile environment this supermaneuvability and post-stall maneuvering is mostly a bunch of crap.  Let some SU-27 drop anchor to try his "Cobra" and I'd have an AIM-9X up his prettythang in two seconds and be on my way.  Why have the airplane do all that turning when the missile can do it better?  Supermaneuverability is sexy and sells airplanes but I don't see that much tactical utility in it.

The thing that really slays me about the F-35 though is the cost of the plane.  In the 1990's the Navy decided to buy the Super Hornet over the advanced Tomcat because, they claimed, of the Tomcat's extraordinarily high $50M per unit cost.  So, how much does the F-18E/F cost?  Oh, round $55M.  Now they're buying an airplane that is supposed to run...wait for it....$115M-$135M.  That's what some program guys are claiming but program guys have never, ever, been an accurate source, you can tell they're lying because their lips are moving.  For instance, they like to leave out little things like Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) where the government procures things like Inertial Navigation Systems, Electronic Warfare Systems, or Ejection Seats on different contracts and then furnishes them to the airframe builder to install.  Actual costs based on experience with the F-22 production shows we're looking at closer to $200M per copy, the same as an F-22.  Why so expensive?  Probably a lot of it is because of all of the still changing requirements from all of the different customers and changing procurement numbers.  It's a vicious circle where lower numbers procured means higher cost per unit and the higher cost per unit leads to lower procurement numbers and so on.  The rest is unanticipated delays based on unrealistic expectations prior to development and production problems.  A million here, a million there eventually adds up to real money. 

The idiotic claims by the press about the F-35 burning holes in carrier decks aside, there's a real problem here and what choices do we have?  F-15's, F-16's and legacy F-18's are falling apart and with Obama's half-a-trillion dollar cut to defense beginning next year we won't be able to maintain but a few of these platforms so what are we going to do besides bitting the bullet and getting the F-35 deployed?
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2012, 10:38:23 AM »
Both Hornet and the Super Hornet are supersonic fighter jets just like practically every first line fighter jet in the western world.

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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2012, 06:04:33 PM »
Also to add to why the hornets are seen carrying so much fuel lately, is that their loiter times over-target and further away from their CV or base in the last ten years has been greater than ever.  Take into account that most fuel is used on T/O and landings (especially if they're still laden with ordnance), and they strap as much as they can on.  Another recent development and tool added in the last decade are F-18s that can be equiped with a refueling pod - their job is specificaly to refuel the forward operating F-18s so that they can avoid a costly T/O or landing and they are intentionaly loaded to the gills with fuel as they offload most of it to other F-18s and are back in short time.  Also, I'm not certain if its practicied, but I've read and know it's "in the books" now with the refueling pods that over-weight F-18s laden with weapons can T/O light on fuel, then get topped-off with fuel shortly after T/O and climbingout, and then proceed to the target area with all those weapons and then with plenty of time to use them.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:06:18 PM by Babalonian »
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