P-38 & The Yoke

[Guppy35]

Didn't they have gun cameras on board that would confirm their kills?

Most countries had gun cameras.  The early 38s had them in the nose where the vibration made them fairly useless.  later they were moved to the wing pylon.

[MachFly]

Most countries had gun cameras.  The early 38s had them in the nose where the vibration made them fairly useless.  later they were moved to the wing pylon.

Right, so all of his kills should have been confirmed.

Bong had many more kills that could never be confirmed because they were downed somewhere in the dense jungle or out in the middle of the ocean.

[Tupac]

Even in an airplane as basic as a C-172 the yoke gets in the way. When a circuit breaker pops or you want to reset it you typically want to see the circuit breaker in order to identify which system is belongs to before doing anything to it, but you just can't see them because of the yoke. I never had such problem with any aircraft that has a stick.  

My skyhawk has the early yokes that are even worse than the later ones (I think that they started the "new" ones on the 1969 172K). I cant see any of my circuit breakers or lighting buttons unless I am at an odd angle because the yoke gets in the way. I also prefer a stick.

[MachFly]

My skyhawk has the early yokes that are even worse than the later ones (I think that they started the "new" ones on the 1969 172K). I cant see any of my circuit breakers or lighting buttons unless I am at an odd angle because the yoke gets in the way. I also prefer a stick.

Thank You!

Even the guy who owns an airplane with a yoke agrees.

[B4Buster]

Never seen an issue with the placement of Beechcraft yokes in the Musketeer airframe birds. The only time It is a minor pain is when looking at oil temp   

Mach - even with guncams, not all kills could be confirmed. IIRC the book 'Aces High' by Bill Yenne mentions this.

[MachFly]

Never seen an issue with the placement of Beechcraft yokes in the Musketeer airframe birds. The only time It is a minor pain is when looking at oil temp   

I think oil temp is pretty important 
I'm not saying that airplanes with yokes suck, I'm just saying that a small airplane does not need a yoke and a stick is usually better.

Mach - even with guncams, not all kills could be confirmed. IIRC the book 'Aces High' by Bill Yenne mentions this.

Are you referring to the fact that the guncamera only shows the airplane get shot and does not show it crash? 

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Right, so all of his kills should have been confirmed.

It took a lot of documentation to have a kill confirmed. A lot more than just some gun camera footage in most instances.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

You see landing at your base with about 2 minutes of fuel is extremely rare, you would normally have more fuel or would run out of fuel before that, loosing an engine is also something that does not happen everyday.

That's where you are wrong, very wrong. In the groups that flew combat in Europe, especially early on, it was not at all uncommon to return from a mission, even with no damage, with barely enough fuel to "ride the pattern" for very long. For the facts on that, I'd suggest you read some of what Warren Bodie wrote, as well as stuff from Capt. Stan Richardson, Capt. Art Heiden, reports from Tony Levier's visits to bases in England, etc. If you don't know where to find that, ask Widewing, he does.

[MachFly]

That's where you are wrong, very wrong. In the groups that flew combat in Europe, especially early on, it was not at all uncommon to return from a mission, even with no damage, with barely enough fuel to "ride the pattern" for very long. For the facts on that, I'd suggest you read some of what Warren Bodie wrote, as well as stuff from Capt. Stan Richardson, Capt. Art Heiden, reports from Tony Levier's visits to bases in England, etc. If you don't know where to find that, ask Widewing, he does.

Instead of me looking for it and reading the whole thing can you just tell me what it says?


You said that you often come back with no damage and low on fuel, in my example I said low on fuel and on one engine. That's with damage.
Also "barely enough" and "very long" is a point of view, 5 minutes to drop the gear is a specific time. The odds of touching down at your base and loosing the engines due to fuel starvation are extremely low. I don't know about you but I heard a lot more stories of people running out of fuel before they landed and not running of fuel at all than running out of fuel at touch down.

[Guppy35]

Right, so all of his kills should have been confirmed.

You are trying too hard here Machfly

The vibration often caused the film to be unusable.  Guys who hung around behind what they thought was a downed bird just for filming purposes usually got killed.

As for losing an engine.  Apparently it happened about every 10th day.  The 428th FS history has mission records in the back and in 425 missions I counted 43 of them with someone coming home single engine.  As for mechanical stuff, there was a reason squadrons always took off with at least a couple of 'spares' to fill in for planes that had to abort for any number of reasons.

Fuel was always an issue.  Ask all those 109 pilots from B of B who ended up in the Channel or on a French beach because they ran out.  Same goes for the Allied drivers coming back to England.  All kinds of stories of guys landing and having the engine die on the runway and needing to be towed in.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Instead of me looking for it and reading the whole thing can you just tell me what it says?

No. You need to read the stuff for yourself. If you really want to know about the P-38, you need to read the right references for yourself, that's the only way to really learn.

[MachFly]

You are trying too hard here Machfly

The vibration often caused the film to be unusable.  Guys who hung around behind what they thought was a downed bird just for filming purposes usually got killed.

Everyone would have had that problem, it does not chance anything. The guy that flew with the stick still had 352 kills and the guy who flew with the yoke had 40.

[MachFly]

No. You need to read the stuff for yourself. If you really want to know about the P-38, you need to read the right references for yourself, that's the only way to really learn.

So what exactly am I going to find out by reading it? Will it have the answer to my question about the P-38 using a yoke or are those just stories written by pilot and what they done? All I want to "learn" about it is why did it have a yoke? Widewing explained one reason but that's only for the early models. If you will tell me that that text explains why the L models had yokes I'll go and read all that stuff. But if you really read it I don't see why you can't just explain it.

[Guppy35]

Everyone would have had that problem, it does not chance anything. The guy that flew with the stick still had 352 kills and the guy who flew with the yoke had 40.

What does having a yoke have to do with anything?  Lets face it the guy with the yoke, spade grip and sticks on the Allies ran out of targets while taking it to the Axis over their own turf.

And if we are going to use that kind of argument, then all I have to point out was the guy with the yoke was on the winning side

[MachFly]

What does having a yoke have to do with anything?  Lets face it the guy with the yoke, spade grip and sticks on the Allies ran out of targets while taking it to the Axis over their own turf.

And if we are going to use that kind of argument, then all I have to point out was the guy with the yoke was on the winning side

Honestly, nothing. Colmbo brought it up as a joke and I responded in the same way. Then everyone here made it a serious discussion but in reality it does not mean much.

What does matter however is that most fighter aircraft (all with the exception of the 38) and all aerobatic aircraft have a stick, there is a reason why. Even the C-17 has a stick and that thing is huge.
A stick is just a better type of control than a yoke. Sometimes you can't put a stick so you are forced to use a yoke, and unless your forces to use a yoke the aircraft should have a stick. Late model 38s do not require a yoke so a stick would be a much better.