P-38 & The Yoke

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

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Machfly, after all this, i no longer care you read your thoughts or views on these subjects.



I say good day! 

[MachFly]

Badka,

I don't know who you are so this does not make any difference to me. You are entitled to your opinion and therefore feel free to disagree with anything that I say.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

So what exactly am I going to find out by reading it? Will it have the answer to my question about the P-38 using a yoke or are those just stories written by pilot and what they done? All I want to "learn" about it is why did it have a yoke? Widewing explained one reason but that's only for the early models. If you will tell me that that text explains why the L models had yokes I'll go and read all that stuff. But if you really read it I don't see why you can't just explain it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly why I said read it yourself. Either you want to find and read the truth, or you don't. If you merely want someone to "tell you", as it appears, then you'll simply decide, as you already have, that it does not fit what you want to believe.

It's simple. Warren Bodie was a Lockheed engineer, and wrote the definitive work on the P-38, plain and simple. Tony Levier was one of the premier Lockheed test pilots. Those are two of the "go to guys" on the P-38. You can either read what they wrote, and accept it as fact, or you can continue to believe what you want to believe.

What Widewing explained to you about the pre J-25-Lo models explains it for all models. You assume the hydraulic boost systems do not work. In a combat aircraft especially, you design it to fly with as many systems in "failure mode" as is possible, so that those systems being damaged in combat do not lead to aircraft loss. So, despite the J-25-Lo and later models having hydraulic boost assist, the plane must be easily flyable without hydraulic assist, so the yoke remains, in order to assure that is indeed the case.

[MachFly]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly why I said read it yourself. Either you want to find and read the truth, or you don't. If you merely want someone to "tell you", as it appears, then you'll simply decide, as you already have, that it does not fit what you want to believe.

It's simple. Warren Bodie was a Lockheed engineer, and wrote the definitive work on the P-38, plain and simple. Tony Levier was one of the premier Lockheed test pilots. Those are two of the "go to guys" on the P-38. You can either read what they wrote, and accept it as fact, or you can continue to believe what you want to believe.

What Widewing explained to you about the pre J-25-Lo models explains it for all models. You assume the hydraulic boost systems do not work. In a combat aircraft especially, you design it to fly with as many systems in "failure mode" as is possible, so that those systems being damaged in combat do not lead to aircraft loss. So, despite the J-25-Lo and later models having hydraulic boost assist, the plane must be easily flyable without hydraulic assist, so the yoke remains, in order to assure that is indeed the case.

Thank You, I'll go read it.

I don't like looking for something to read that I know almost nothing about. Now that you explained what's in it I will happily read it.

[Guppy35]

Instead of me looking for it and reading the whole thing can you just tell me what it says?


You said that you often come back with no damage and low on fuel, in my example I said low on fuel and on one engine. That's with damage.
Also "barely enough" and "very long" is a point of view, 5 minutes to drop the gear is a specific time. The odds of touching down at your base and loosing the engines due to fuel starvation are extremely low. I don't know about you but I heard a lot more stories of people running out of fuel before they landed and not running of fuel at all than running out of fuel at touch down.

I came across mention in a book last night of a 15th AF creation called the "Three Minute Egg Club".  Members were limited to those that landed with less then three minutes fuel.  That there were enough for them to have a club speaks volumes.  I remembered this post so figured I'd throw it in.

[gripen]

What does matter however is that most fighter aircraft (all with the exception of the 38) and all aerobatic aircraft have a stick, there is a reason why. Even the C-17 has a stick and that thing is huge.
A stick is just a better type of control than a yoke. Sometimes you can't put a stick so you are forced to use a yoke, and unless your forces to use a yoke the aircraft should have a stick. Late model 38s do not require a yoke so a stick would be a much better.

The main problem with the yoke is that it always needs two hands for precise control so the reasons why it was used in the P-38 are pretty much certainly related to control forces.

[MachFly]

I came across mention in a book last night of a 15th AF creation called the "Three Minute Egg Club".  Members were limited to those that landed with less then three minutes fuel.  That there were enough for them to have a club speaks volumes.  I remembered this post so figured I'd throw it in.

I don't doubt that. What I was saying is that if your coming home with lots of damage (ex: without an engine) you would either make it with plenty of fuel or wont make it at all. The odds of you making it home on one engine and running out of fuel on the runway are next to 0.

[MachFly]

The main problem with the yoke is that it always needs two hands for precise control so the reasons why it was used in the P-38 are pretty much certainly related to control forces.

Most of the time when you need precise control one of your hands is on the throttle so you still have only one had for the yoke. When you don't need a hand on the throttle you're most likely just cruising so either way you never use two hands to control the aircraft. An exception would be is when you have a very large aircraft (~B-24+ size) that is severely damaged with no hydraulics that really wants to roll to the side. 

[Guppy35]

I don't doubt that. What I was saying is that if your coming home with lots of damage (ex: without an engine) you would either make it with plenty of fuel or wont make it at all. The odds of you making it home on one engine and running out of fuel on the runway are next to 0.

LOL not so.  Corky Smith bringing "Corky Jr" in single engine, low fuel after getting his fifth kill.  Its why I chose CorkyJr as my AH ID.  I bring em in single engine low fuel all the time!

[MachFly]

LOL not so.  Corky Smith bringing "Corky Jr" in single engine, low fuel after getting his fifth kill.  Its why I chose CorkyJr as my AH ID.  I bring em in single engine low fuel all the time!
(Image removed from quote.)

Oh, interesting. How often did that happen, was it a one time thing or were they bringing in the 38s like that often?

[olds442]

Oh, interesting. How often did that happen, was it a one time thing or were they bringing in the 38s like that often?

Or are you make this thread go on just to make your post count rise. people already told you why and yet you refuse to stop posting about the "what if's" and "how many times did that happen?" and "i dont want to read! YOU DO IT FOR ME EVEN THO I MADE THE QUESTION!" And you will reply and say somthing like "thats a lie. STONE HIM!'

[MachFly]

Or are you make this thread go on just to make your post count rise. people already told you why and yet you refuse to stop posting about the "what if's" and "how many times did that happen?" and "i dont want to read! YOU DO IT FOR ME EVEN THO I MADE THE QUESTION!" And you will reply and say somthing like "thats a lie. STONE HIM!'

First if you look at the thread it was not me who bumped it up to the top after a week. Second the question was not answered, one reason was explained but it was a minor reason that did not justify installing a yoke and that reason was gone after installation of hydraulically boosted controls. And third if you got a problem you don't have to post here, seems like you're trying to find an excuse for extra posts and increase your post count.

[Guppy35]

Oh, interesting. How often did that happen, was it a one time thing or were they bringing in the 38s like that often?

Like AH, if you were low fuel, you shut down an engine to stretch it and hoped.  The advantage of two engines in a 38.  I guess I'll have to start typing specific stories of guys having to be towed in after running out of fuel on the runway too

[colmbo]

First if you look at the thread it was not me who bumped it up to the top after a week. Second the question was not answered, one reason was explained but it was a minor reason that did not justify installing a yoke and that reason was gone after installation of hydraulically boosted controls. And third if you got a problem you don't have to post here, seems like you're trying to find an excuse for extra posts and increase your post count.

If they had changed from a yoke to a stick there would have been some re-engineering needed, tooling on the assembly line would have changed, etc.  These are all things that would slow the production of aircraft.  It would not have been allowed to happen.  It was felt that getting the a/c out as is was more important than making small changes.

Simply not enough benefit from the change to warrant the delay.

[MachFly]

Like AH, if you were low fuel, you shut down an engine to stretch it and hoped.  The advantage of two engines in a 38.  I guess I'll have to start typing specific stories of guys having to be towed in after running out of fuel on the runway too

That's not very efficient. When you shut down one engine you have to use a lot of rudder and aileron to keep the plane going straight, all of those control deflections create a lot of drag. For maximum fuel efficiency and speed you want to keep all engines on and throttle down to the appropriate cruise settings.