Author Topic: F6F Hellcat  (Read 18264 times)

Offline Baumer

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2012, 02:09:51 PM »
This is true, but it will affect some planes more than others.
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Offline FLS

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2012, 04:25:25 PM »
I'm guessing it's an issue with the difference in blanking. I imagine the airflow gets pretty complicated with the gull wings and the horizontal stabs forward of the vertical stab.



Doh. I mean horizontal stabs behind, not forward of, the vertical.

Offline Shuckins

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2012, 05:33:32 PM »
FYI,

The turn radius performance data in AHT was calculated not tested data by the author Francis Dean. Some of his Cl data was scattered which is why the results of some are off. This was heavily discussed on the boards many years ago (when I was still active anyway).



Well, I suppose that depends on how you interpret this text:

"Accurate data on minimum turn radius of fighter types is difficult to come by or to estimate.  Information is available, however, from one of the World War II U.S. fighter conferences on stall speeds in three g turns for eight of the eleven types considered here.  Data are provided for the P-38, P-47, P-51, P-61, P-63, FM-2, F4U-1D, and F6F-5.  The information is for clean aircraft configuration, that is gear and flaps retracted, canopy closed, and no external stores aboard.  The assumption is made in each case that engine power available is sufficient to keep the plane in level flight (not sinking) during the turn.  In such a case the minimum turn radius occurs when the wing develops the maximum possible lift coefficient without stalling.  The actual minimum turn radii are not calculated, but Table 103 (quoted in one of my earlier posts) shows the eight types ranked in order from best to poorest turn radius capibility.  The radius depends on the airplane wing loading (weight divided by wing area) and maximum wing lift co-efficient.  A low wing loading tends to make the plane more maneuverable, that is, to have a tighter turning circle capability;  if the wing loading is high turning is penalized.  On the other hand if the wing maximum lift coefficient is low the turn capability is poor;  if it is high turning can be tighter;  the proportionality is inverse."

_____________________________

The part that is bolded indicates that Francis Dean did not come up with this data on his own, or make it up.  Since the men who compiled the data were the flight engineers and military pilots who attended the fighter conference one MUST assume that they knew what they were talking about.  The text that comes after the bolded part stems from Dean attempting to make clear how the data was compiled and why certain assumptions were made.

Offline Shuckins

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2012, 05:47:39 PM »
By the way, if the fighter conference that Dean mentions in the previous text was the Joint Fighter Conference held at the Naval Air Station Patuxent Maryland from October 16-20, 1944 (and I have every reason to believe it was) then examples of the various fighter types discussed above were available for the large group of attending pilots.  The pilots evaluated certain characteristics of the fighters present.  In addition to purely technical evaluations they performed direct "head-to-head" comparisons.  So the turn-radius, roll-rate, acceleration, dive speed, and any other combat characteristics were tested.  You can bet your bottom dollar that those aircraft were thoroughly wrung out.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 05:49:32 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Saxman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2012, 07:44:00 PM »
The data was for stall speeds in three g turns for clean aircraft configuration, with gear and flaps retracted, canopy closed, and no external stores.

That's probably why the Corsair was so far down the list compared to how it's flown here. If you've seen the stall speed chart for the F4U, the amount of lift generated by the Hog's flaps is absolutely RIDICULOUS. I don't have it handy, but IIRC the stall speed reduction for power-on full flaps was something approaching, if not BEYOND, 50% vs. clean configuration.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Shuckins

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2012, 08:28:31 PM »
That's probably why the Corsair was so far down the list compared to how it's flown here. If you've seen the stall speed chart for the F4U, the amount of lift generated by the Hog's flaps is absolutely RIDICULOUS. I don't have it handy, but IIRC the stall speed reduction for power-on full flaps was something approaching, if not BEYOND, 50% vs. clean configuration.

You're right...it is ridiculous.  Because of the amount of lift granted by the Corsair's flaps, a lot of AH pilots hover about during a dogfight like hummingbirds.  No sane WW II fighter pilot toddled around during a dogfight with his flaps fully extended.  It was a sure way to commit suicide.  When flaps were used at all it was for only brief....very brief....periods....to evade an attacker or attain a firing solution.

Offline Saxman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2012, 09:15:56 PM »
The same goes for the Spits, F6F, P-38s, 109s, the Ki-84, N1K2, FM-2, Brewster, and every other fighter in the plane set. To say nothing of the dive-bombing Lancasters and bomber formations running at max power all the way to target and back.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Baumer

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2012, 10:29:45 PM »
I don't care if the Corsair out turns the Hellcat. I care that the aerodynamic model is incorrect and it gives specific planes, capability that they just didn't have.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2012, 06:06:33 AM »
Isn't this really easy to test? What was the historical stalling speed of the F4U-1 with flaps? Around 80 mph if I remember correctly. What is it in the game? How does the stalling speed of the game model without flaps compare to its historical counterpart?
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Offline Shuckins

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #114 on: January 22, 2012, 07:59:02 AM »
Here is everything that Dean had to report in AHT about the Corsair's stalling characteristics:
___________________________

"Stalling characteristics of the Corsair were considered quite normal, at least after the spoiler strip was installed inboard on the right wing to keep the stall reasonably symmetrical.  Stall warnings consisted of a tail buffet, an abnormal nose-up attitude, a lightening of stick forces, and increasing left wing heaviness with an additional requirement for right rudder if power was on.  The warnings came only about five knots before actual stall in landing configuration, so later airplanes were equipped with a warning light in the cockpit to signal impending stall to pilots not fully proficient in the Corsair.  The light, located on the instrument panel, was connected to an airflow sensor on the wing center section.  A breakdown of wing airflow sent a signal to illuminate the light.  The sensing system gave a more advanced warning, about 15 knots above stall speed in the clean condition of the airplane.  After considerable experience with the aircraft pilots could sense an impending stall without the aid of the warning light.

The actual stall was quite abrupt, particularly with flaps down, and was accompanied by a relatively sharp left roll, or in some cases a sharp right wing drop and a nose down pitch.  If the stick was quickly dumped forward a tendency to spin could be avoided.  Stall speed was in the range of 70 to 90 knots IAS depending on aircraft model, weight, power level, and configuration.

An accelerated stall while pulling g in a high speed turn or dive pullout was preceded by aircraft buffeting a few knots above the actual stall.  As with the landing condition, the spoiler on the right wing succeeded in stalling out the wings quite evenly in the high speed case.  A Vought test pilot said "We found the wedge most effective in improving flight characteristics during a high speed accelereated stall".  The stall was characterized by a quick right wing drop with considerable shaking of the aircraft, which could easily flick out of the turn unless back stick pressure was quickly released.  When this was done a rapid recovery could be made.

Stall warning and stall recovery characteristics of both F4U-1C and F4U-1D Corsairs were rated "good" by a group of pilots.  Interestingly though, the Corsair was ranked ninth of eleven fighter types in "Best characteristics five mph above stall".

No intentional spinning was permitted by the book in Corsairs, and Vought test pilots advised service pilots not to try.  The reason was it got tougher to recover as the number of spins added up.  If a spin developed inadvertently the pilot was to apply the standard procedure of full opposite rudder followed by full forward stick with ailerons held neutral.  Recovery from the incipient stage of a spin was quick with standard procedures being used promptly, and with a one turn spin recovery could be made within a quarter turn.  Letting it really wind up was the problem.  In testing the later F4U-4 airplane though, Vought pilots explored spin behavior, including inverted spins, and found no particular difficulty in recovering from normal four turn spins with a clean airplane.  This model was usually considered the very best flying of all the Corsair aircraft versions."
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 08:02:46 AM by Shuckins »

Offline Saxman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2012, 09:32:11 AM »
Here is everything that Dean had to report in AHT about the Corsair's stalling characteristics:
___________________________

"Stalling characteristics of the Corsair were considered quite normal, at least after the spoiler strip was installed inboard on the right wing to keep the stall reasonably symmetrical.  Stall warnings consisted of a tail buffet, an abnormal nose-up attitude, a lightening of stick forces, and increasing left wing heaviness with an additional requirement for right rudder if power was on.  The warnings came only about five knots before actual stall in landing configuration, so later airplanes were equipped with a warning light in the cockpit to signal impending stall to pilots not fully proficient in the Corsair.  The light, located on the instrument panel, was connected to an airflow sensor on the wing center section.  A breakdown of wing airflow sent a signal to illuminate the light.  The sensing system gave a more advanced warning, about 15 knots above stall speed in the clean condition of the airplane.  After considerable experience with the aircraft pilots could sense an impending stall without the aid of the warning light.

The actual stall was quite abrupt, particularly with flaps down, and was accompanied by a relatively sharp left roll, or in some cases a sharp right wing drop and a nose down pitch.  If the stick was quickly dumped forward a tendency to spin could be avoided.  Stall speed was in the range of 70 to 90 knots IAS depending on aircraft model, weight, power level, and configuration.

An accelerated stall while pulling g in a high speed turn or dive pullout was preceded by aircraft buffeting a few knots above the actual stall.  As with the landing condition, the spoiler on the right wing succeeded in stalling out the wings quite evenly in the high speed case.  A Vought test pilot said "We found the wedge most effective in improving flight characteristics during a high speed accelereated stall".  The stall was characterized by a quick right wing drop with considerable shaking of the aircraft, which could easily flick out of the turn unless back stick pressure was quickly released.  When this was done a rapid recovery could be made.

Stall warning and stall recovery characteristics of both F4U-1C and F4U-1D Corsairs were rated "good" by a group of pilots.  Interestingly though, the Corsair was ranked ninth of eleven fighter types in "Best characteristics five mph above stall".

No intentional spinning was permitted by the book in Corsairs, and Vought test pilots advised service pilots not to try.  The reason was it got tougher to recover as the number of spins added up.  If a spin developed inadvertently the pilot was to apply the standard procedure of full opposite rudder followed by full forward stick with ailerons held neutral.  Recovery from the incipient stage of a spin was quick with standard procedures being used promptly, and with a one turn spin recovery could be made within a quarter turn.  Letting it really wind up was the problem.  In testing the later F4U-4 airplane though, Vought pilots explored spin behavior, including inverted spins, and found no particular difficulty in recovering from normal four turn spins with a clean airplane.  This model was usually considered the very best flying of all the Corsair aircraft versions."

You read that, and the Corsair doesn't sound like the wild and untamed beast the reputation makes her out to be. Rather she sounds little different than most other high-powered fighter aircraft of the time. If you consider that the F4U was one of the first of the truly high-powered fighters (Navy and Marine pilots were going from the Brewster or F4F with only 1200hp to an aircraft with almost DOUBLE that) it really makes me think a lot of the teething problems and reputation were less the airframe itself and more from pilot inexperience with the more powerful engine.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Baumer

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2012, 10:07:28 AM »
The fact that the Corsair in game stalls below every documented stall speed is proof enough that something is wrong.
The fact that the Corsair in game has clearly demonstrable rudder authority at 30 mph is proof enough that something is wrong.

What ever is wrong probably applies to all aircraft, not just the Corsair.



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Offline FLS

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2012, 12:04:29 PM »
The F4U-D stalls at 100mph level power off and 76mph landing configuration as in the manual. What am I missing?

Offline mechanic

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2012, 12:12:33 PM »
Other than Greebo and Mathman, I don't forget Redd, he was one of the best F6F'ers I've encountered.

oh... and Wadke!
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Offline Baumer

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #119 on: January 22, 2012, 04:00:21 PM »
FLS I just re-ran my stall stall tests for the F4U-1D and this is what I came up with. All stalls were initiated at 500 feet with stabilized speed and maintaining close to zero vertical speed as the plane decelerated. Also, per Hitech I chose to record a stall as the onset of canopy frame shake, this is not when the plane is truly stalled but at least 1 of the lift points in the aerodynamic model is stalled. Typically a pilot would have to fly deeper into a stall to even notice it, most planes I've flown the stall speed in the POH is when the nose drops. I ran these tests at 11,465lbs take off weight with fuel burn at 1.00.

per the Corsair POH 15 Mar 45 with an aircraft weight of 11,300 lbs.

Gear up, flaps up, throttle closed, stall speed of 87kts (100mph)- my ten test average- 98.2 mph
Gear down, flaps down (50), throttle closed, stall speed of 75kts (86mph)- my ten test average- 73.5 mph
Gear up, flaps up, power on (18" & 2400 rpm) stall speed of 84kts (96mph)- my ten test average- 96.8 mph
Gear down, flaps down (50), power on (23" & 2400 rpm) stall speed of 66kts (75mph)- my ten test average- 75.5 mph

The Corsair is my favorite aircraft, but I choose not to fly it much in Aces High. It's excessive views and unrealistic low speed modeling make it too inaccurate for me.

 
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